TN 'bar carry' passed into law

This is a discussion on TN 'bar carry' passed into law within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I was a solid Republican for over 30 years. The "Bush years" set me back on my keister. The disasterous results of that administration showed ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    I was a solid Republican for over 30 years. The "Bush years" set me back on my keister. The disasterous results of that administration showed that it didn't matter which party was in power, allowing complete control of the government to either party is asking for failure. I now vote for the candidate and to establish some sort of balance in the offices. I also have noticed that 2d Amendment beliefs are not exclusive property of either party. There are anti gun and pro gun Republicans as well as Democrats. I haven't become a Democrat voter but I now vote split ticket and look at the individual candidates with a lot more scrutiny.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Any news?
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  4. #48
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    Funny how it is legal to carry in a bar, but to also DRINK while carrying in a bar in Pennsylvania and we do not hear of "Wild West style" shootouts in Pennsylvania.....

    Maybe alcahol and guns can mix but alcahol and idiots and guns shouldn't mix.
    Last edited by Cruel Hand Luke; June 3rd, 2010 at 04:43 PM.
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  5. #49
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    Staff of one representative said that the house will take up the override vote tomorrow, Friday, June 4, but there is no sb3012 override on tomorrow's agenda. There is some concern of whether the house has the time to clear its calendar and whether this bill will merit its attention. However, the house doesn't seem about to adjourn.
    So, again, I'm writing to my representative, to keep on the pressure and maybe get some information on how the GG's plan to schedule this.
    In the mean time, here is a fine and articulate appeal by the bill sponsor to override the veto. Maybe, by the time you finish reading, the veto will be done and the bill on the Secretary of State's desk to sign into law.
    Senator Jackson:

    Today I rise for the second time to ask the Senate to override the veto of legislation that is intended and does, in fact, provide good, law-abiding citizens the right and ability to protect themselves in establishments across the state.

    Let me begin by saying that I respect the Governor of the State of Tennessee. I respect the office that he holds—the office that the people of Tennessee allows him to hold. I appreciate his good and accomplished service to the State of Tennessee, and his accomplishments are considerable. However, on this issue, in regards to Senate Bill 3012, I respectfully submit to this body that the Governor is wrong.

    In his veto notice, the Governor says that Senate Bill 3012 lacks basic safeguards for public safety. What are the safeguards to which the Governor refers? It remains a mystery to all lawmakers. For two years I have asked the administration to work with us on the provisions of this bill. This session, I asked the Deputy Governor and the Director of Legislative Affairs to communicate with the bill’s sponsors and the committees on safeguards that the Governor referenced last year in his veto announcement that the Executive Branch would like to see contained within this bill. I directly asked the Governor, personally, to work with us, and communicate with us what he would like to see in this legislation. To date, I have had no communication whatsoever with the administration—none—about what provisions this bill should or should not have in the view of the Executive Branch.

    If the Governor believes the legislation poses a threat to public safety, then I believe we could all agree that communication should have taken place between the Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch, as it has occurred on hundreds of other issues, many or most of those issues dealing with far less important matters than public safety. Since the only communication from the Executive Branch has been the veto notice that was disseminated to the public and to the media, and to each of us, I have taken the time to read it very carefully.

    Frankly, the veto notice contains clichés and conclusions. But, I ask the members to look at it closely for what you do not see, because the veto notice is totally void of facts, data, statistics, information of any kind to substantiate the position of the Executive Branch. It shares no evidence that supports the decision to veto. For example, the veto notice states, “Guns and alcohol do not mix.”—a truism. I completely agree, as does every member of this Senate—which is why Senate Bill 3012 makes it a crime for a permit holder to consume a single drop of alcohol. And for enhanced consequences should a permit holder fall under the influence of alcohol.

    If the Governor submits that a permit holder having dinner at a restaurant that serves alcohol results in more gun crime, then should he not share the evidence of that with the Senate and with the House? We’ve asked for such information. It has not been produced.

    The veto notice implies that the bill lacks common sense. Ladies and gentlemen, the common sense argument is usually employed when the evidence is best ignored. And when the evidence is in favor, in support of Senate Bill 3012, is so compelling, I guess I could understand why critics would choose to ignore that evidence.

    This General Assembly examined the evidence very carefully and very thoroughly, and based on the evidence—not emotion—the legislation has passed the House and the Senate with bi-partisan, super-majority votes last year and this year.

    The veto letter attempts to fuel emotion and fear by describing the legislation as reckless and dangerous. Again there is no evidence to support such inflammatory descriptions, which I submit is intended to only to fuel opposition to the bill and to create fear within the public.

    In 1997, the General Assembly passed a law requiring the issuance of a permit to any citizen who completes a training course; passes a practical and written test; submits an application under oath with a photograph and fingerprints, and then passes a criminal background check. Those who were in the legislature at that time can well remember the outcry from critics of the legislation. Critics of the legislation included many in the news media who characterized the legislation as the “Wild West Bill,” and predicted bloodshed in the street and great harm to public safety. They described that bill as reckless and lacking in common sense. Today we know that those critics were wrong.

    With over 300,000 permits now issued, or processed, in the State of Tennessee, and that number increasing by approximately 5,000 a month, with a forty percent increase in Davidson County in the last two years, we have a clear record of safety and responsibility that is irrefutable—a record that goes back more than thirteen years. Tennessee’s good experience is not surprising because that experience is shared by millions of permit holders in approximately forty-five states in this country.

    Now, those states extend from Vermont to Alaska; from Texas to Minnesota; to California; every state surrounding the State of Tennessee, but one, allows permit holders to carry in establishments that serve alcohol. And yet, the experience in those states has not been bad. The experience has been very positive. Law-abiding citizens have now proven that they can be trusted. That the problem is not law-abiding citizens with guns—the problems are criminals with guns. The problem is not the gun—it’s who has the gun.

    Since 1997, Tennessee permit holders have been allowed to be armed in most places, such as streets, sidewalks, office buildings, grocery stores and markets and malls, and most restaurants. You can go to Shoney’s and Cracker Barrel, McDonalds, Burger King, or just your favorite diner out in the country. Permit holders have been dining with our constituents for many, many years. And I bet your, your response has been the same as mine. I have never had a complaint from a single citizen because a permit holder made them feel uncomfortable—not a one.

    In 1980, only about six states were “shall issue” permit states. Today that number is about forty-five. As those permit laws were debated over the years in those various states, the media and critics and some criminologists claimed that good citizens could not be trusted and more crime would be the result from those laws. Over time, that debate among criminologists has now narrowed. I challenge the news media to show me differently.

    The debate today is not whether the permit laws result in an increase in crime. The debate is whether it has no effect on crime, or, in fact, reduces crime. It’s between no effect and good effect. No one argues that the permit laws across the country have resulted in more crime, because as millions of permits have been issued, we have seen the crime rate in this country plummet. Sort of a remarkable idea isn’t it? You let law-abiding people defend themselves when they feel the need for that, and crime levels fall.

    This legislation allows permit holders to lawfully enter establishments that serve alcohol, such as O’Charley’s or Ruby Tuesday’s, provided the owner has not posted the property and provided the permit holder not consume a single drop of alcohol. Again, lawmakers have looked at the evidence before voting on this legislation. The facts revealed in the forty or so states that have allowed permit holders to enter establishments that serve alcohol is clear. The laws in those states have not resulted in an increase in rates of violent crime. To assume that permit holders will suddenly become lawbreakers when they enter an establishment where alcohol is served not only defies common sense, but it defies clear evidence provided by the real-world experience of most states in this country over many, many years.

    By the way, every state bordering Tennessee again, except North Carolina, allows their citizens with permits to enter establishments that serve alcohol. Florida, while not a bordering state, has allowed this for twenty-two years. The evidence is available—the experience is clear.

    Critics have gone so far as to claim that this law will tarnish our economy. It will drive tourism away from the State of Tennessee. Well, where will it go, because most states have a law in place that is the same or similar to that which is being proposed in the State of Tennessee. Tennessee is not leading the way on this issue. Tennessee is one of the last states to follow.

    No one is advocating that everyone should carry a gun. But I do advocate that every good, honest, law-abiding citizen should have the choice to do so. The right of self-defense is a right that transcends any constitution or any law. Can we call ourselves free if government attempts to arbitrarily dictate how, when, where or even if a citizen can defend themselves? Should not government have to at least establish a compelling reason to restrict fundamental rights? If not—if your answer to that question is no, then can you call it a right? So I ask, what evidence exists to justify governmental restriction on this issue? You will not find the answer to that in the veto message of the administration.

    Every day as we watch the news and hear about terrible crimes—murders and rapes, assaults, home invasions—we sometimes forget about the victims and the victims’ families. In many neighborhoods, gangs and violent crimes are pervasive. They’re a part of neighborhood life. Remember, many good and honest citizens must live next to criminals and thugs and drug dealers and gangs. They’ve got to go to work in the dark, and they return home in the dark. And they’ve got to secure themselves behind barred windows and security doors. Why would we tolerate any law which makes it more difficult for good citizens to carry a defensive weapon if a good citizen believes it’s necessary for their defense or defense of family?

    Crime can occur anywhere. Does it matter to critics of this legislation that a woman is two and a half times less likely to be injured or killed when confronted with violence if that woman is armed? Does it matter that an armed citizen is almost never harmed or killed when forced by a dire circumstance to display a firearm when confronted by a violent crime? The evidence shows that the criminal stops aggressing. Why would we keep laws in place that require good citizens to disarm—increasing their chances of becoming a victim?

    Senate Bill 3012 is about defending a fundamental right under our state and federal constitutions—the citizen’s right to keep and bear arms. It’s about trust of law-abiding citizens. It’s about individual choice and responsibility. It’s about respecting good citizens’ right of self-defense. It’s about acknowledging that laws only apply to citizens who obey the laws—not criminals.

    In spite of the excellent record of safety and responsibility established by good, honest citizens across this country and this state, the veto message of the Governor says to them, “I do not trust you, and I do not need evidence to support my position. I simply don’t trust you. I veto this because I can.” The Governor has asked the legislature to rethink the issue. I respectfully ask the Executive Branch to think the issue, and I ask for your support on Senate Bill 3012.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array CCWFlaRuger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by friesepferd View Post
    bah, stupid gvnr vetoed it on the last day (well, actually what i thought was the day after the last day, but i guess they count differently than i do).
    he of course waited to the very last day so that there might not be time in the legislative period for them to overturn it, but there will be.
    now yet another session of watch and wait. im getting sick of this.
    Sorry for your bad luck, come on down to Florida, we can eat out with our weapon as long as we don't drink. I'm ok with that, I don't drink much anyhow.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
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  7. #51
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    Funny how it is legal to carry in a bar, but to also DRINK while carrying in a bar in Pennsylvania and we do not hear of "Wild West style" shootouts in Pennsylvania.....

    Maybe alcahol and guns can mix but alcahol and idiots and guns shouldn't mix.
    Sorry, but years working in the bars has proven to me that, while not every person who drinks alcohol to excess (enough to start slurring, stumbling, picking fights, p!$$ing on the floor, puking on the bar, spilling their drink on me 3 times in an hour) is an idiot, there are entirely too many who are, and I do not even want to be near one of them when they have gun.
    "You will not rise to the occasion and you will not default to your level of training. You WILL ONLY default to the level of training you have mastered."
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    -Phoenix Arms Raven

  8. #52
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    It was brought up at the end of the session tonight as unfinished business and is to be voted on tomorrow (Friday June 4). Curry Tood said "Mr Speaker, looking forward to the override."

    The house is schedule to convene at 10:00 AM tomorrow and will likely be in session Saturday (90th day).

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadeye111 View Post
    It was brought up at the end of the session tonight as unfinished business and is to be voted on tomorrow (Friday June 4). Curry Tood said "Mr Speaker, looking forward to the override."

    The house is schedule to convene at 10:00 AM tomorrow and will likely be in session Saturday (90th day).
    Yes, under the rules notice of the override must be given in a session of the Tennessee House, then it can be considered and voted upon in the next scheduled session (in this case, tomorrow, 4 June 2010).
    If the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.--Samuel Adams as Candidus, Boston Gazette 20 Jan. 1772

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  10. #54
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    Tennessee House Expected to Address Veto Override As Early As Today, June 4.

    Maybe today.

    Late Thursday, June 3, the Tennessee State House in accordance with the adopted rules, received the proper notice from the Senate regarding Governor Phil Bredesen’s (D) veto of Senate Bill 3012. As a result, the House can now consider overriding the Governor’s veto during the unfinished business portion of the House Calendar as early as today, June 4.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  11. #55
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    The house is in recess tonight but will overwhelmingly override the veto during "unfinished business", tomorrow, Saturday, June 5, probably.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  12. #56
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    Tennessee House voted to override Gov. SB3012 to allow Concealed Carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. Not really sure when the law is in effect.

    Yes 61
    No 30
    Vote taken 9:39 PM Friday June 4, 2010

  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadeye111 View Post
    Tennessee House voted to override Gov. SB3012 to allow Concealed Carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. Not really sure when the law is in effect.
    When the Secretary of State signs it
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, Tennessee Certified Instructor

  14. #58
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    Gov. Bredesen’s Veto of Restaurant Carry Again Overridden by State Legislature

    NRA-ILA :: Gov. Bredesen?s Veto of Restaurant Carry Again Overridden by State Legislature
    Friday, June 04, 2010

    Fairfax, Va. – In a strong reaffirmation of the fundamental right of self-defense, the Tennessee House and Senate have successfully overridden Governor Phil Bredesen’s veto of Senate Bill 3012. This NRA-supported bill will enable law-abiding right-to-carry permit holders to carry firearms for self-defense in establishments where alcohol is served, as long as they do not consume alcohol or are not otherwise prohibited by posting provisions. SB 3012 passed both the House and Senate with broad bipartisan support, but Gov. Bredesen vetoed the bill on May 18, disappointing more than 250,000 right-to-carry permit holders in his state. While an override of the veto only needed a simple majority vote to pass, it cleared both chambers with overwhelming, bipartisan support. This measure was overridden in the Senate by a margin of 22-10 and in the House by a margin of 61-30.

    “Until today, Tennessee law has prevented right-to-carry permit holders from having the chance to defend themselves from criminal attack while in a restaurant,” said Chris W. Cox, NRA chief lobbyist. "It’s a shame that Governor Bredesen has so little faith in his fellow Tennesseans to behave responsibly, but this veto override proves that the majority of Tennessee legislators do trust permit holders. They understand this is a common-sense measure that must become law in their state, just as it is already law in 32 other states.”

    Not one of the 32 states that allow permit holders to carry in establishments that serve alcohol has repealed this law. That’s because these laws have proven to be effective and permit holders have proven to be trustworthy. This type of legislation is crucial because crime can occur anywhere, including in restaurants. On April 2, 2009, a Tennessee man was gunned down at a sports bar in Nashville by a criminal stalking his wife. Although she was a right-to-carry permit holder, she was forced to helplessly watch this tragedy unfold, because Tennessee law required her to leave her gun locked in the car outside.

    A bill similar to SB 3012 passed the Tennessee House and Senate with overwhelming bipartisan support in May 2009, only to be vetoed by Gov. Bredesen. Despite a successful veto override by Tennessee’s state legislature, the enacted law was ruled unconstitutionally vague because of a perceived ambiguity over the state’s definition of restaurants. SB 3012, filed in response to that court ruling last November, fixed any possible ambiguity.

    “We would like to thank State Sen. Doug Jackson (D-25), State Rep. Curry Todd (R-95) and Lt. Governor Ron Ramsey for their leadership and commitment to this effort” concluded Cox.

    This law will go into effect upon being assigned a public chapter number by the Tennessee Secretary of State.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, Tennessee Certified Instructor

  15. #59
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    Thanks for posting.

    Override came 2:1 (66/33%) in both houses. These are the representatives whose political fate depends on local constituency. This says a lot for the freedom-loving people of TN.

    The secretary will sign by the end of the month for sure.

    Rep Todd, house sponsor of the bill, didn't read his prepared speech last night to save time. I'd like to get it.

    Sen Jackson's, sen sponsor's, speech is posted above. His support of 2A and the facts really mocks the governor. He says, "Critics have gone so far as to claim that this law will tarnish our economy. It will drive tourism away from the State of Tennessee. Well, where will it go, because most states have a law in place that is the same or similar to that which is being proposed in the State of Tennessee."

    Great stuff.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
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    *dances*
    man im still in a good mood from last night. looking forward to it getting signed in and making my trip to applebees. now i can actually start carrying on a regular basis. hurray!
    Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
    (Murder begins where self-defense ends)
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