Lets talk Militia (The US Code Militia)

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    Lets talk Militia (The US Code Militia)

    United States Code: Title 10,311. Militia: composition and classes | LII / Legal Information Institute

    TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART I > CHAPTER 13 > § 311

    § 311. Militia: composition and classes

    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are—
    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

    Wikipedia info

    The current Militia Code is a result of the Militia Act of 1903.

    Why today are only men mentioned?

    Why the cut off age of 45?

    If Chicago v. McDonald is ever overturned or changed to be tied to militia, can this Federal law be used to limit the Second Amendment rights of women and people over the age of 45?

    If a 17 year old is considered militia, why are his Second Amendment rights restricted as a minor?

    Has the unorganized militia been marginalized?

    If CONUS were to be invaded, or some other unspeakable event, would the Feds actually call up the militia before we were immersed in annihilation? Do they even have a plan? Or would we just be expected to pop up armed and start shooting?

    OK I'm done now.
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    Very interesting post. I think you raised both some interesting and good questions and one red-herring. The red-herring is the issue of invasion. Ain't gonna happen. We have I think 9 aircraft carriers, innumerable attack subs and nuclear missile subs. We have a potent Air Force. Do you think our enemies will swim here from N. Korea or from China? Or from Iran?

    O.K. with that one out of the way, the other questions seem both interesting and reasonable, and probably have NO answer because these have not been tackled by the courts. Moreover, the SC has not tied 2A rights to membership in a militia, and in fact went the other way--- to disassociate the right to own for self defense from the militia clause.

    So, my opinion, which of course is absolutely valueless except for discussion purposes, is that the courts won't ever deal with these issues.

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    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Why do we not force all men at the age pf 17 to undergo militia training and then issue them a government owned militia rifle such as countries like Switzerland does?

    This is what the founders meant by the word regulated, as in Trained, not ruled and regulated by regulation.
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    The current Militia Code is a result of the Militia Act of 1903.

    Why today are only men mentioned?
    At that time,men were the work force, woman stayed at home, did what they needed to do, raised kids, cooked, cleaned house. The mindset was much different back then.

    Why the cut off age of 45?
    Life was so much harder then. After age 45 your were considered to be on the down side of life. The average lifespan in 1903 was 47. That would be akin to 70 today.


    If Chicago v. McDonald is ever overturned or changed to be tied to militia, can this Federal law be used to limit the Second Amendment rights of women and people over the age of 45?
    Who knows? Federal law can say anything if you get enough yahoos in agreement. That dont make it right.

    If a 17 year old is considered militia, why are his Second Amendment rights restricted as a minor?
    Because Federal law says 21. Federal law trumping states rights has been the norm since 1865. Until we have another Civil War and the other side wins, it wont change.

    Has the unorganized militia been marginalized?
    Of course it has. Many in government see the unorganized milita as a threat to them by a bunch of gun toting rednecks. Remember the Clinton Administration? "Militia" was the dirty word during that administration.

    If CONUS were to be invaded, or some other unspeakable event, would the Feds actually call up the militia before we were immersed in annihilation? Do they even have a plan? Or would we just be expected to pop up armed and start shooting?
    Sure they have a plan. Their plan is to save themselves.They will justify it by saying that they'll be there to start over. Think about it. They'll be in such a turmoil that for the most part they'll be ineffective. If we got invaded, it must be assumed that all communication and probably the power grid will have been attacked and lost. If thats the case, how are they gonna get the "call" out?

    Responsible men dont need the Federal Government to tell then what to do when it hits the fan. If we are being invaded, most of them will figure out what to do, while the rest are crying "gloom,despair and agony on me...

    OK I'm done now
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    re: Tangoseal

    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    Why do we not force all men at the age pf 17 to undergo militia training and then issue them a government owned militia rifle such as countries like Switzerland does?
    How about because when you use the word "force" it isn't compatible with the word "freedom."

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    Don't mean to start the sparks aflyin', but in my opinion, we've already been invaded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Very interesting post. I think you raised both some interesting and good questions and one red-herring. The red-herring is the issue of invasion. Ain't gonna happen. We have I think 9 aircraft carriers, innumerable attack subs and nuclear missile subs. We have a potent Air Force. Do you think our enemies will swim here from N. Korea or from China? Or from Iran?
    None of the above. They can - and do - simply cross the border in Arizona with near impunity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    How about because when you use the word "force" it isn't compatible with the word "freedom."

    Freedom isn't free my man!! And doesn't come from being pacifist. I know first hand by the barrel of a weapon.

    But yeah I didn't mean to use the term force. Meant offer the option to those whom may not want to serve military but would like to know how to react in a state of national defense on a massive scale. Plus there could be benefit from doing so such as a guaranteed , sigh..... privilege to own and utilize a personal fully automatic weapon as opposed to the civilian that didn't serve in military or volunteer for militia training.

    That is realistic and feasible right? I mean cm'on.
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    Another question; if the militia age is 17 then why don't we get draft numbers until 18?
    This may have been answered elsewhere; but with the SC ruling that it is indeed an individual right and not tied to militias then will they ever change the amendment to take the militia clause out or create a new amendment that basically reads the same but more clearly states it as an individual right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie1826 View Post
    Another question; if the militia age is 17 then why don't we get draft numbers until 18?
    This may have been answered elsewhere; but with the SC ruling that it is indeed an individual right and not tied to militias then will they ever change the amendment to take the militia clause out or create a new amendment that basically reads the same but more clearly states it as an individual right?
    That would be up to both houses of congress. Ratified by the states. The Judicial branch would have no jurisdiction to do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    That would be up to both houses of congress. Ratified by the states. The Judicial branch would have no jurisdiction to do that.
    Good point, I forgot about that. But the question still remains will the amendment ever be changed or will a new one ever be written that is more clearly written (I know most of us think that the one in place now is clearly written but obviously the antis don't), so that there can't even be an argument about it being an individual right? I know that this court case affirmed that but there will still be future challenges.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Very interesting post. I think you raised both some interesting and good questions and one red-herring. The red-herring is the issue of invasion. Ain't gonna happen. We have I think 9 aircraft carriers, innumerable attack subs and nuclear missile subs. We have a potent Air Force. Do you think our enemies will swim here from N. Korea or from China? Or from Iran?

    O.K. with that one out of the way, the other questions seem both interesting and reasonable, and probably have NO answer because these have not been tackled by the courts. Moreover, the SC has not tied 2A rights to membership in a militia, and in fact went the other way--- to disassociate the right to own for self defense from the militia clause.

    So, my opinion, which of course is absolutely valueless except for discussion purposes, is that the courts won't ever deal with these issues.
    I must, with respect, disagree with the assertion that we will never be invaded. We now have an estimated 12 million to 25 million foreign nationals here illegally. Mexican cartels regularly send armed formations into US territory to deliver illegal drug shipments and illegal immigrants, and the same cartels are operating brazenly in US communities conducting kidnappings and assasinations. Of the total gross domestic product of Mexico it is estimated that 40% consists of funds transfered from illegal immigrants living in the United States.

    Illegal immigrants hold political rallies and protests in US cities, flying foreign flags and demanding that we grant their demands. American school children are prohibited from displaying the US flag so that illegal immigrants are not offended.

    US congressmen and senators have been co-opted by illegal immigrant groups lobbying for their causes in our capitol. Now that Arizona has legislated the enforcement of federal immigration laws by state officers as a means of defending Arizona's citizens our federal government has gone to court in an attempt to stop the states from doing what the federal government has failed to do.

    I suggest that we have been invaded on a massive scale, and the invasion is continuing.
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    Member Array loboleather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlie1826 View Post
    Another question; if the militia age is 17 then why don't we get draft numbers until 18?
    This may have been answered elsewhere; but with the SC ruling that it is indeed an individual right and not tied to militias then will they ever change the amendment to take the militia clause out or create a new amendment that basically reads the same but more clearly states it as an individual right?
    There is grave danger involved in changing our Constitution, and the procedure for adopting amendments was purposefully made difficult.

    Re-writing the Second Amendment would require a constitutional amendment that, first, repeals the Second Amendment and, only second, puts something else in place.

    There are quite a few people who would attempt to use such an opportunity to further their agenda, and I (for one) would not want to place my trust in the legislature to tinker with this issue.
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    + loboleather Too dangerous for this approach

    Quote Originally Posted by loboleather View Post
    There is grave danger involved in changing our Constitution, and the procedure for adopting amendments was purposefully made difficult.

    Re-writing the Second Amendment would require a constitutional amendment that, first, repeals the Second Amendment and, only second, puts something else in place.

    There are quite a few people who would attempt to use such an opportunity to further their agenda, and I (for one) would not want to place my trust in the legislature to tinker with this issue.
    +1 This would be a very dangerous approach. There is no telling what would emerge as the new language and what would be lost, instead of gained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    Why do we not force all men at the age pf 17 to undergo militia training and then issue them a government owned militia rifle such as countries like Switzerland does?

    This is what the founders meant by the word regulated, as in Trained, not ruled and regulated by regulation.
    +1 That's exactl;y what they meant, people just got lazy after the 1903 militia act and stopped training. The Swiss model of "militia" is the model the Founders used, at least I think it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    How about because when you use the word "force" it isn't compatible with the word "freedom."
    I see your point here, but I would disagree, sometimes force and freedom go hand in hand, just ask the Israelis.

    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    Freedom isn't free my man!! And doesn't come from being pacifist. I know first hand by the barrel of a weapon.

    But yeah I didn't mean to use the term force. Meant offer the option to those whom may not want to serve military but would like to know how to react in a state of national defense on a massive scale. Plus there could be benefit from doing so such as a guaranteed , sigh..... privilege to own and utilize a personal fully automatic weapon as opposed to the civilian that didn't serve in military or volunteer for militia training.

    That is realistic and feasible right? I mean cm'on.
    I think is is realistic and feasible, and if someone doesn't want to serve in an armed militia, other ways to serve can be offered just like the Swiss.

    Quote Originally Posted by loboleather View Post
    There is grave danger involved in changing our Constitution, and the procedure for adopting amendments was purposefully made difficult.

    Re-writing the Second Amendment would require a constitutional amendment that, first, repeals the Second Amendment and, only second, puts something else in place.

    There are quite a few people who would attempt to use such an opportunity to further their agenda, and I (for one) would not want to place my trust in the legislature to tinker with this issue.
    Agreed, that's a receipe for the dismantling of the 2A forever, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by loboleather View Post
    I must, with respect, disagree with the assertion that we will never be invaded. We now have an estimated 12 million to 25 million foreign nationals here illegally. Mexican cartels regularly send armed formations into US territory to deliver illegal drug shipments and illegal immigrants, and the same cartels are operating brazenly in US communities conducting kidnappings and assasinations. Of the total gross domestic product of Mexico it is estimated that 40% consists of funds transfered from illegal immigrants living in the United States.

    Illegal immigrants hold political rallies and protests in US cities, flying foreign flags and demanding that we grant their demands. American school children are prohibited from displaying the US flag so that illegal immigrants are not offended.

    US congressmen and senators have been co-opted by illegal immigrant groups lobbying for their causes in our capitol. Now that Arizona has legislated the enforcement of federal immigration laws by state officers as a means of defending Arizona's citizens our federal government has gone to court in an attempt to stop the states from doing what the federal government has failed to do.

    I suggest that we have been invaded on a massive scale, and the invasion is continuing.
    Interesting point of view, and I agree that those that cross our borders with illegal intent, IMO, are invaders, however, I'm not sure I would call those seeking a better life invaders, they are not unlike the waves of immigrants that came through Ellis Island during the 19th Century, they are just not doing it the legal way.
    "Don't start none, won't be none!"

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