More "Militia" Talk - Aren't we allowed?

This is a discussion on More "Militia" Talk - Aren't we allowed? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Another thread was discussing militias and the RKBA. My question is a bit different so I thought a new thread would be best. This also ...

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Thread: More "Militia" Talk - Aren't we allowed?

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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Question More "Militia" Talk - Aren't we allowed?

    Another thread was discussing militias and the RKBA. My question is a bit different so I thought a new thread would be best. This also may have been discussed time and time again but it might not hurt to bring it back fresh considering the state of the nation as of now.

    The Constitution mentions militias made up of regular citizens as a fighting force. However, when I read states laws, militias may be illegal.

    My state, Florida, has a law making it illegal for three or more men (people) to gather for the purposes of training or preparations for fighting (war).

    Why, or how, can a state make it illegal for free men to gather for training as a militia force when our Constitution allows for an armed militia?
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    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    Does that include groups getting together for paintball?
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    Indeed. Tally, do you by chance have a link to the statute?
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Does that include groups getting together for paintball?
    was thinking the same thing. or perhaps a group outing to the gun range. i like to go with my wife and sometimes a recently recruited anti. so there could be 3-4 of us at times.

    i was just thinking though, i don't see it as really an enforcable law. i mean, its not like they go around looking for these things. i see it as just another charge they can slap on "suspected terrorist groups"

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    Aren't we allowed? No. You are not allowed in 17 states.

    The U.S. Supreme Court has issued a qualified rejection of the insurrection theory. According to the Court in Dennis v. United States, 341 U.S. 494, 71 S. Ct. 857, 95 L. Ed. 1137 (1951), "[W]hatever theoretical merit there may be to the argument that there is a 'right' to rebellion against dictatorial governments is without force where the existing structure of the government provides for peaceful and orderly change." Scholars have interpreted this to mean that as long as the government provides for free elections and trials by jury, private citizens have no right to take up arms against the government.

    Read more: Second Amendment - Private Militias http://law.jrank.org/pages/10067/Sec...#ixzz0tECWwRsR
    Last edited by Hopyard; July 9th, 2010 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Added material

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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    Here are Florida Statutes:


    Title XVII
    MILITARY AFFAIRS AND RELATED MATTERS


    Chapter 250
    MILITARY AFFAIRS


    View Entire Chapter

    250.02 Militia.--

    (1) The militia consists of all able-bodied citizens of this state and all other able-bodied persons who have declared their intention to become citizens.

    (2) The organized militia is composed of the National Guard and any other organized military forces that are authorized by law.

    (3) The unorganized militia is composed of all persons who are subject to military duty but who are not members of units of the organized militia.

    (4) Only persons exempt from military duty by the terms of federal law are exempt from military duty in this state.




    Here is the statute on Paramilitary:


    Title XLVI
    CRIMES

    Chapter 790
    WEAPONS AND FIREARMS


    View Entire Chapter

    790.29 Paramilitary training; teaching or participation prohibited.--

    (1) This act shall be known and may be cited as the "State Antiparamilitary Training Act."

    (2) As used in this section, the term "civil disorder" means a public disturbance involving acts of violence by an assemblage of three or more persons, which disturbance causes an immediate danger of, or results in, damage or injury to the property or person of any other individual within the United States.

    (3)(a) Whoever teaches or demonstrates to any other person the use, application, or making of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, knowing or having reason to know or intending that the same will be unlawfully employed for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    (b) Whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

    (4) Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to prohibit any act of a law enforcement officer which is performed in connection with the lawful performance of his or her official duties or to prohibit the training or teaching of the use of weapons to be used for hunting, recreation, competition, self-defense or the protection of one's person or property, or other lawful use.
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    Laws are only important to law-abiding citizens. If a group of people is disgruntled with their current government, they will assemble in secrecy anyway to avoid being targeted by their perceived aggressor government. However, all of the sections listed above are reasonable to a law-abiding citizen whom is friendly to the current regime. Sporting, self-defense, etc is protected by section 4. The other sections basically just say "you can't assemble for illegal activities".

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    (b) Whoever assembles with one or more persons for the purpose of training with, practicing with, or being instructed in the use of any firearm, destructive device, or technique capable of causing injury or death to persons, intending to unlawfully employ the same for use in, or in furtherance of, a civil disorder within the United States, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
    Note the section in bold. It's only illegal to train in/with weapons (etc) if you have the INTENT to use that training in furtherance of civil disorder in the US. Gathering, training, practicing, whatever is not illegal in and of itself. Basically, you have nothing to worry about unless there is evidence that you are training for the purpose of committing a further crime.

    Carry on.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 68Mustang View Post
    Laws are only important to law-abiding citizens. If a group of people is disgruntled with their current government, they will assemble in secrecy anyway to avoid being targeted by their perceived aggressor government. However, all of the sections listed above are reasonable to a law-abiding citizen whom is friendly to the current regime. Sporting, self-defense, etc is protected by section 4. The other sections basically just say "you can't assemble for illegal activities".
    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    Note the section in bold. It's only illegal to train in/with weapons (etc) if you have the INTENT to use that training in furtherance of civil disorder in the US. Gathering, training, practicing, whatever is not illegal in and of itself. Basically, you have nothing to worry about unless there is evidence that you are training for the purpose of committing a further crime.

    Carry on.

    I understand that, however, all it takes is for the Guv'ment to "declare" that such training has such "illegal intent".

    If I am not mistaken, training in order to make a move against the government is, or would be, considered an illegal act?

    Still, if we, as citizens, ever decide that any administration in place is becoming a tyranny, then do we not have the right to plan an over throw?

    Now, I am not planning such an act and I am not training for one. Matter of fact I am currently re-enlisting in the Army National Guard.

    I am asking these questions because I am an American and I am fully aware that we, as citizens, have the right and duty to protect the Constitution of this United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. Training for such an event should be part of our readiness?
    I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.
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    As noted in the SCOTUS decision above: no, you don't have the right to plan an overthrow. Unless and until the "tyranny" has removed the legal means to change the government (that is, abolished the vote, done away with jury trials and due process, etc), you have no "right" to violent overthrow. The very reasonable rational is that you have every right and opportunity to "overthrow" the government by voting them out. Until peaceful alternatives are abolished, planning a violent overthrow is illegal.

    And, as a cop, I can tell you that trying to prove intent is no cut-and-dried proposition. It will take a lot more than the arresting officer saying "yer honor, I just knows them boys was planning somethin' no good" to prove intent.

    I say again: carry on.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    The laws prohibiting various militia rather obviously vary from state to state in how they are worded and what is prohibited. The FL statute appears to be aimed at conduct but in other states membership in a private militia is by itself a crime; no necessity to prove intent to do unlawful things.

    Sorry that I can't quickly and easily provide the cites but I am fairly certain I have put them up here at DC during other similar discussions. Just for a quick comparison, I recall that Texas specifically makes militia activity illegal, whereas VA, as FL it seems, has aimed their law at the intent and the conduct. I also seem to recall that there is no specific Federal statute outlawing militias, but Federal law certain applies to prohibited conduct as in the FL statute.

    Not in the mood to go searching google and yahoo and wiki again.

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    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Its in the constitution. How can there be any excuse to make a law that oppresses that right?

    THink like a child people!
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

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    A righteous man dosent need anyone telling him how to act. If he must act, he will act.

    A smart man knows when to act and when not to act.

    When the "law" quits working for the benefit of its citizens, then they will do what they must do and no amount or writing on a paper will change it.

    Its never been any different throughout history.
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    (4) Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to prohibit any act of a law enforcement officer which is performed in connection with the lawful performance of his or her official duties or to prohibit the training or teaching of the use of weapons to be used for hunting, recreation, competition, self-defense or the protection of one's person or property, or other lawful use.
    Sounds like free reign to institute a "Self Defenders" militia.

    Sounds to me like they would have dificulty making any charges stick without proof of intent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    A righteous man dosent need anyone telling him how to act. If he must act, he will act.

    A smart man knows when to act and when not to act.

    When the "law" quits working for the benefit of its citizens, then they will do what they must do and no amount or writing on a paper will change it.

    Its never been any different throughout history.
    Agree 100%, Well said ; )
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