City can't find it's park (to define where OC is legal)

This is a discussion on City can't find it's park (to define where OC is legal) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This is a story about OC but more importantly it is about government ineptitude and stonewalling to deny a right. http://redondobeach.patch.com/articl...-from-the-city The city apparently is ...

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Thread: City can't find it's park (to define where OC is legal)

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    City can't find it's park (to define where OC is legal)

    This is a story about OC but more importantly it is about government ineptitude and stonewalling to deny a right.

    http://redondobeach.patch.com/articl...-from-the-city

    The city apparently is unable, in a 2 week period, to define the borders of their 'park' in order to give guidance to an OC event on where they can legally carry. Further, they suggest citizens consult a private attorney for access to the information, or delay their armed public gathering.

    I really HOPE HOPE HOPE some OCer gets arrested because even if they are in the 'park' there is no way a conviction could be valid and upheld if the boundaries are undefined, unmarked and meandering. The city is priming itself for a big civil payout.
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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array DaveJay's Avatar
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    Even the police chief wants some guidance....problem is, he wants the South Bay Open Carry folks to wait until he can get it...

    Which begs the question...how are they enforcing laws today if they don't know what is where???
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    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    It appears, after reading the article and the ONE comment, that there is no legally defined "park" space at the pier. Instead, the city has probably just decided that it is a "park" and has started enforcing laws in the area. However, just saying that they are going to enforce certain laws in certain areas does not a "park" make.

    T'were I the CLEO I would inform my officers that there is a rally going to happen and that they are to monitor the situation but not interfere unless public safety is clearly at risk. T'were I the city I would issue them a permit to demonstrate.

    Unfortunately, these chowderheads can't seem to think let alone "plan." Which is pretty typical of public service. Wait until it breaks, slap a bandaid on it and tell everyone you're fighting to protect them from harm.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Can you say Stonewalling. The city doesn't care about suits, its not their money.

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    Member Array Horsetrader's Avatar
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    Redondo Beach is stonewalling. But that is hardly the issue. California politicians (beaurocrats also) like to push the public into situations where the individual has to PROVE his rights in court and disprove the police charges. Happens over and over again. An open carry situation in a city park in Oceanside where the individual is arrested and after 18 months the city ordinance is changed (found to be illegal in court) and the police have a "new " training session. Redondo will never draw the line on the park boundaries and the Open Carry event will be frot with possible arrests. That is the Socialist state of California.

    The BIGGER issue here is timing in my thoughts. Currently winding its way through the maze of hallways and socialistic deal-making in Sacramento is AB 1934. AB 1934 is a bill that will OUTLAW OPEN CARRY of handguns in California. Written by a Los Angeles state legislator with an A+ ANTI-gun rating. Open carry in California (for those of you not familiar with this type of nonsense) is done with a UNLOADED firearm in a holster visible from 3 sides. Although to be fair to California Law, the ammo can be on the belt. This situation at any open carry event NECESSITATES the police checking every HANDGUN to be sure it is compliant to state law ie. UNLOADED.

    Timing ? Is it wise to push the public and politicians with an OPEN CARRY EVENT now with AB 1934 dangling in Sacramento ? I wonder if it matters. The die is cast in California. Recent legislation that requires the registration of long guns, outlaws internet ammo purchases and requires records kept on the sale of ammo (ID of purchaser noted) are added to all the current gun regulations that makes owning a gun a complete nightmare in California. Every time I hear from my brother I can only shake my head in wonder that freedom loving American have not revolted in California prior to now. Just what does it take to make you demand your God given rights ?! Well, until you do ....remember to lock your handgun in a container with the ammo in another locked container out of immediate reach of each other and no baseball bats in the cab of your truck (or car). Good luck in Redondo.....do have someone on speed dial with bail money.
    "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsetrader View Post
    AB 1934. AB 1934 is a bill that will OUTLAW OPEN CARRY of handguns in California. Written by a Los Angeles state legislator with an A+ ANTI-gun rating. Open carry in California (for those of you not familiar with this type of nonsense) is done with a UNLOADED firearm in a holster visible from 3 sides. Although to be fair to California Law, the ammo can be on the belt. This situation at any open carry event NECESSITATES the police checking every HANDGUN to be sure it is compliant to state law ie. UNLOADED.
    Assemblywoman Lori Saldana is the author of AB1934 and she is (unfortunately) from San Diego, a center for many open carry protests. FWIW, by law, LEO can only inspect the handgun to ensure it is unloaded and may run the serial number to ensure it is not stolen. LEO cannot take the handgun with him to do this, forcing the LEO to REMEMBER the number or call it in while it is in his hands. If the s/n happens to be underneath the grips, LEO cannot run the numbers. To take the gun away from the carrier beyond the "loaded" check would require probable cause and since there is no probable cause that the gun is stolen, LEO has to stop there. Probable cause would be if the numbers were obviously defaced or ground away, very unlikely for this group. Open carry guys have gotten this routine down to a science!

    Quote Originally Posted by Horsetrader View Post
    Recent legislation that requires the registration of long guns, outlaws internet ammo purchases and requires records kept on the sale of ammo (ID of purchaser noted) are added to all the current gun regulations that makes owning a gun a complete nightmare in California. Every time I hear from my brother I can only shake my head in wonder that freedom loving American have not revolted in California prior to now. Just what does it take to make you demand your God given rights ?! Well, until you do ....remember to lock your handgun in a container with the ammo in another locked container out of immediate reach of each other and no baseball bats in the cab of your truck (or car). Good luck in Redondo.....do have someone on speed dial with bail money.
    First, AB1934 and long gun registration are PROPOSED legislation, far from actually being law. The internet ammo sale ban plus record keeping is already in court. Thanks to a previous SCOTUS unanimous verdict tossing a New England law that banned internet sales of cigarettes ("protecting the children"), it's likely that the CA law will also fail. And in CA, you travel legally with your fully unloaded handgun in a locked container other than your console or glove box. Your loaded mags or speedloaders can be in the same locked container. And if you are stopped by LEO and asked if you have any firearms in your vehicle, the correct answer is that you have nothing illegal in your vehicle. If you are asked again, you repeat yourself, then ask if you are free to go or are being detained. You either get to leave immediately or LEO needs probable cause to detain you. If you exit your vehicle for LEO, you immediately close the car door after you. LEO needs probable cause to open that door to search your vehicle. Of course, you have not left "interesting" items in plain view.

    The reason why CA has suffered these ridiculous laws so long is that in 1850, when CA became a state, we did not include a right to keep and bear arms in the CA constitution. Yes, there was a reference that US law was the prevailing law, but the desire to keep guns out of the hands of the Mexicans was more important then. With the SCOTUS decisions on Heller and now MacDonald (applying Heller to all of the states, incl. CA), we now do have RKBA in CA. So now we are challenging in the courts the laws governing CCW, the "safe gun" roster, gun show restrictions on public property, and a lot more. The legal teams doing these challenges are very well coordinated and are suing not just in CA. In fact, they are suing other states with similar laws but with more favorable judicial appellate courts to establish stronger judicial rulings that will withstand challenges by the antigunners. This takes time but they are doing the job to solidify not just RKBA in CA but throughout the USA.

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I would think that would definitely fall under "vague" ...
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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    Member Array Horsetrader's Avatar
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    Thank you Rivers for the correction. Saldana http://democrats.assembly.ca.gov/members/a76/ seems like a lovely though misguided individual. AB 1810 Registration of long guns is currently in Senate Appropriations Committee (last step prior to Senate approval). Ammo restrictions of sales on internet and record keeping of purchasers is set to commense in February 2011 (withstanding court cases). Do you know of a group in the North County area that I can refer my brother to for info, meetings and political action ?
    "Improvise, adapt, overcome."

  10. #9
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsetrader View Post
    Do you know of a group in the North County area that I can refer my brother to for info, meetings and political action ?
    Hey, Horsetrader. Sorry if I kind of jumped on you. There is so much misinformation or partial info about CA gun laws and our legal actions that I'm a bit sensitive there. It seems that many around the US think that CA gun enthusiasts just let this mess happen, and that the mess would stay within CA borders. I've seen where CA lawyers are engaged in lawsuits in a variety of states where we can make a positive impact in striking down those unconstitutional laws. This sets strong legal precedents for other courts, including the ones in CA, to reference when rendering future decisions.

    I recommend that anyone who needs info on CA gun matters visits www.calguns.net and check out the info that's readily offered. The website is the parent of the Calguns Foundation that has done such a great job so far on the legal front. It's great seeing how many gunnies from other states are actually contributing money to the Calguns Legal Foundation to help fight the lousy gun laws. They see we're not just working for CA although that is the focus. But then, other states do pay attention to what happens here. When a CA law fails, it's unlikely that law will grow new wings elsewhere.

    And yeah, Saldana is a real piece. What she doesn't realize is that if this UNLOADED open carry (UOC) ban passes, CA has effectively painted itself into the same corner that Ohio did, forcing shall issue concealed carry. CA will still need something that works for ranchers who need bigger firearms than concealable but who also need to travel public roads between parcels of their ranches. CA does have legal open LOADED carry in counties of less than 200,000 populations. On a side note, the legal planners at Calguns had requested that the UOC proponents stand down after Heller, anticipating the backlash that Saldana provided. Many members at Calguns.net are not sympathetic to the UOC'ers insistence on having these very public protests (despite the warnings), then the UOC'ers asked for Calguns members to help defeat Saldana's legislation. Just stupid!

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    Here in FL, parks are okay for CC (no open carry in FL). Had a back-and-forth with a county attorney about a county ordinance prohibiting firearms in a county park. After sending him the state statute on prohibited areas and the statute on preemption, he raised the white flag. The signs are still up but carry no legal weight. The county laws/rules are, as the state says, "null and void."

    "there is no way a conviction could be valid and upheld if the boundaries are undefined, unmarked and meandering."
    I don't think I'd want to bet my life on this. While a person on the phone in a city office may not know the boundries, I bet they are posted somewhere in the records. It may come down to "ignorance of the law (or boundries, in this case) is no excuse" for the poor person arrested.
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    WE don't have the "right to bear arms" in our constitution either, but in NOV.... we're finally getting a chance to vote on adding it to the constitution of the state. HOOOORAY ! ! !
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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    Member Array charlie1826's Avatar
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    More great stuff from california I see. Once again gun free zones don't do anything but I won't open that can now. How are people supposed to follow the law if the politicians can't tell you what the laws, or in this case boundaries, are? Sadly, even with the boundaries being undefined I wouldn't put it past them to arrest and charge people in the areas that they decide are within the boundaries.
    One more reason to be glad I don't live in california, good luck to everyone that does.

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