Is It Your Right, or A Privilege?

Is It Your Right, or A Privilege?

This is a discussion on Is It Your Right, or A Privilege? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I've been asking myself this for a while now. If you have to apply for, and seek approval from some type of governing body to ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
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    Is It Your Right, or A Privilege?

    I've been asking myself this for a while now.

    If you have to apply for, and seek approval from some type of governing body to carry a firearm, is it a right, or has someone given you a privilege?

    What do you guys think?
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
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  2. #2
    Member Array patrol's Avatar
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    I know I will receive some flak for this and I don't really care. To me the second amendment is clear and it does not matter if it's concealed or open carry. The people's rights shall not be infringed. PERIOD. You have a right to carry any available gun that a crook could also posses and use against you or any other type of person or organization that would try and disarm you in any manner and take away your ability to protect yourself. That goes for ignorant gun control laws and supposed gun free zones that disarm citizens like the campus the church and any public place trying to force their rules on you by disarming you. You should have a right to carry it anyway you dam well please and anywhere you dam well please. Thats how you really deter crime. The second amendment should be your concealed carry permit in my opinion. That's also coming from a sixteen year veteran Police Officer.
    If you can read this thank a teacher. If it is written in English thank a Marine.

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    ........the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. What else do you need to know? Its not a priviledge the government gives us, its a basic right of all truely free people and our founding fathers knew this to be true.
    When I leave the home port:
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  4. #4
    Member Array patrol's Avatar
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    That is the problem with this country and too many Libtards or Apathetic bystanding sheep in it. The see the Constitution and more importantly the most important and fundamental part of our Constitution known as "The Bill of Rights" as merely a privilege, therefore having them restrained or slowly destroyed and taken away makes you putting your foot down and saying "no more" some type of radical when really Americans should stand up and do so more often regardless even if they wan't to be armed, the ability to do so in order to protect yourself and your family should never be taken away.
    If you can read this thank a teacher. If it is written in English thank a Marine.

  5. #5
    Member Array Samwolf's Avatar
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    It's a right that all free men have. Sadly over the years, we've let the government whittle it away so that a lot of people think it's a privilege and some of the government treat it as a privilege.
    Samwolf

    "One of the ordinary modes, by which tyrants accomplish their purposes without resistance, is, by disarming the people, and making it an offense to keep arms."

    -- Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, 1840

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    I'd expect a consensus of opinion among group members here. As for me, "shall NOT be infringed" seems pretty darned clear.

  7. #7
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    I like the way Clarence Thomas put it in his concurrence decision in McDonald vs. Chicago.

    Quote:
    the record makes plain that the Framers of the Privileges or Immunities Clause and the ratifying-era public understood—just as the Framers of the Second Amendment did—that the right to keep and bear arms was essential to the preservation of liberty. The record makes equally plain that they deemed this right necessary to include in the minimum baseline of federal rights that the Privileges or Immunities Clause established in the wake of the War over slavery. ...

    I agree with the Court that the Second Amendment is fully applicable to the States. I do so because the right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment as a privilege of American citizenship.

    End Quote.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Array DaveJay's Avatar
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    I consider the vote the most important right granted to us by the Constitution...and yet we have some minimum of government control over that right...

    You must register so it is determined if you are eligible to vote (a citizen and not a felon)...so I see no problem with a minimum of government control over the RKBR...

    The problem is....the government in most states have gone far beyond minimum control...
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  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    It's a right that somewhere along the line, we the people of these United States allowed to be taken away from us and now were fighting like the dickens to get it back one step at a time.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  10. #10
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    Too many controls are government attempts in search of a problem.

    The vote allows a peaceful transition of government. Except for the police that are only minutes away, and other defenders of our tranquil society, the problem is really government and those (liberals) who believe that our society has outgrown the vision of our founders. I think that our founders - radicals for freedom and enemies of tyranny - left a bright beacon for us to work toward. And I believe the lyrics, "Oh beautiful for patriots' dreams that see beyond the years".
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  11. #11
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    Heck I don’t know, but I can say that now that it’s essentially a free choice to carry here in Arizona, the public mindset has changed. With few exceptions, nearly anyone can carry concealed without the permit process. Before yesterday, it was something that was considered special and only for those who paid for a course, attended the class, allowed for the various agency checks, and waited for your permit card to arrive in the mail. It was costly and time consuming, and so a lot of people simply didn't bother.

    Now it’s simply no big deal and its no longer perceived as something ‘special’. It’s kinda’ cool in a way, because nobody freaks out anymore over the thought of someone carrying. I’ll draw a socially accepted comparison to someone carrying a pocket-clip knife. The public suddenly expects or assumes that citizens will be armed. My take? It’s a right and privilege, and criminals now know they could be shot by practically anyone.
    Last edited by Saber; July 31st, 2010 at 03:43 PM.
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  12. #12
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    A good thing, Saber, that AZ is recognizing 2A as the founders might have.

    It seems our rights are inversely proportional to governmental oversight of those rights.

    There are localities (e.g., Chicago) and may-issue states (e.g., NY or CA) that are corrupt or whose officials use the law as an opportunity to tyrannize the average citizen while "bestowing their privilege" on their friends, campaign contributors, celebrities, and the political class.

    Tyrants can twist 2A into a privilege. Government can't grant a natural right like self defense. Government can only restrict rights. With its monopoly on force, it is the only legal (though not necessarily legitimate) entity that may do so.

    We should be wary when any level of government involvement results in any equivocation or infringement of such rights.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array jbum's Avatar
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    Well said Saber.

  14. #14
    Member Array lifehertz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveJay View Post
    I consider the vote the most important right granted to us by the Constitution...
    This is a commonly confused point. The Constitution grants no rights. I will repeat: the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights DO NOT GRANT RIGHTS. The second amendment codifies the Framers' recognition of the natural right to self-defense and self-rule. The intent of the Bill of Rights is to explicitly prevent the federal government from interfering with some particularly important rights in the tradition of English law going all the way back to the Magna Carta.

    You are born with all the rights you could possibly have. You can never get more; they can only be taken away. Any "rights" that governments or other institutions claim to give you are not rights. They are privileges, powers, or services. If you cede (or worse, pervade) the point that the Bill of Rights grants rights then you are giving legitimacy to the thought that changing the Bill of Rights could take a right away.

    and yet we have some minimum of government control over that right...

    You must register so it is determined if you are eligible to vote (a citizen and not a felon)...so I see no problem with a minimum of government control over the RKBR...

    The problem is....the government in most states have gone far beyond minimum control...
    I don't accept that we must have some "minimum" of government control over our lives. Gun control laws are an abuse of state power to effect a social change. People who are in favor of them are under the impression that removing guns from society will remove or reduce violence and crime. This is argued over using statistics and emotion, but at the end of the day ANY government intervention in the right of self-defense is morally repugnant.

    Ensuring responsible gun ownership should certainly be a goal for society, but it's clear that using the power of government to achieve that goal is both foolish and dangerous. The history of "minimum" government control like mandatory registration blossoming into disarmament (and in several cases, genocide) speaks for itself.

    As an alternative, what if we accept that anyone can own any type of weapon he or she feels is necessary for self-defense? Our existing legal system will already punish one who acts in an aggressive, violent manner toward others. Why do we need laws that regulate social behavior or protect people from themselves? When one trespasses or aggresses against another, then the government should step in. Otherwise, it should stay out of the way.

    That being said, there might be an interesting opportunity for the market to bring solutions to effect responsible firearm ownership. For example, what if providing proof of firearm competency brought a discount on home owner's insurance, similar to a security system? What if employers took the stance that having armed, responsible employees brought safety to their business and offered to pay for firearm safety classes the way they might offer to pay for CPR classes?
    Last edited by lifehertz; July 31st, 2010 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Fixed a typo

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array automatic slim's Avatar
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    Since it's in the Bill of Rights, it's obviously a right. Prior to 1934 there was no government control over carrying, using, owning any type of firearm (except maybe in NYC) and the country was in much better shape then than now.
    "First gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand."
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