NYC Landlord Tells ATF Inspector No Firearms Allowed

This is a discussion on NYC Landlord Tells ATF Inspector No Firearms Allowed within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I currently reside within a DHCR regulated building in New York, NY. My apartment was originally occupied by my Grandmother then it went in succession ...

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Thread: NYC Landlord Tells ATF Inspector No Firearms Allowed

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    Senior Member Array mrreynolds's Avatar
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    NYC Landlord Tells ATF Inspector No Firearms Allowed

    I currently reside within a DHCR regulated building in New York, NY. My apartment was originally occupied by my Grandmother then it went in succession to my Father and many years later to me. My Fathers military records from the Vietnam era are addressed here just to give you an idea of the amount of time my family has occupied the space.

    Several years ago before I took over the lease the building was sold to a new owner. Although I did not reside here for the duration I moved in at a much later date which was still enough time to allow me to receive succession from my Father.

    I have a standard front & back page DHCR lease with no additional provisions attached. My Fathers previous leases have zeros in that section of his old leases as well. I am currently in possession of the appropriate firearms permit(s) / license(s) from the NYPD to possess firearms. I recently applied for a FFL01 & C&R from the ATF.

    The property owner did not state that I could not legally conduct my business but he told the investigator that "I am not allowed to possess firearms in my premises" although there are no such provisions in my lease. Being a renewal lease I was not given any attachments stating that it was a provision in the "original" lease signed by my Grandmother at a time when in my opinion there would have been no reason to include such a provision.

    I'm communicating with the NYC Council now to determine if my business complies with a professional office which is a permitted use. As I am an internet based business (no retail sales).

    I want to challenge this as an illegal arbitrary & capricious statement that has no legal standing in regards to my first two year renewal lease contract which I signed that went into effect on 06.01.2009 as he did not include any such firearm restriction policy.

    As per the NYPD Commanding Officer of the Licensing Division the landlord cannot prohibit me but I need that in writing.

    Statement on the back of DHCR renewal lease. http://www.dhcr.state.ny.us/Forms/Rent/rtp8.pdf

    Before you complete and sign PART B and return this Renewal Lease Form, be sure to check that all lawful provisions and written agreements have been attached by the owner to this Form. Please read all attachments carefully. If such other lawful provisions appear, they are part of this lease renewal offer and renewal lease. If there are any lawful agreements between you and the owner, attached copies must be signed by both parties.

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    Mr. Reynolds....I have visited you website (Cavalier Knight), kudos for running a nice looking company! I can't imagine the roadblocks you must encounter in trying to run a biz in NYC that specializes in this line of work. As for your topic, i wouldn't have a clue...good luck!
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    I'm pretty sure that contract or no contract the "Owner" of the property has the final say. I can't seem to find it right now, but when I do I'll post it for you...
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    I'm pretty sure that contract or no contract the "Owner" of the property has the final say. I can't seem to find it right now, but when I do I'll post it for you...
    So what your saying is an owner can just violate any part of their lease they wish? Then what is the point of a lease?
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    In order to obtain a FFL you need a place of business and a business license, Almost every incorporated town or city has zoning regulations. Some types of home occupations are permitted by most local zoning regulations. These types of businesses might include specific types of professional home office such as architect, engineer or accountant. Often there will be a stipulation that the professional office cannot have more than one employee. There may also be a list of prohibited types of home business.

    You will need to study the NYC zoning code first to make certain that a home occupation can be used for retail firearms sales. You mentioned Internet sales. Some cities actually regulate what types of Internet business can be conducted from a home based business.

    It is not at all unusual for a retail storefront to be zoned for a firearms business but the landlord will not allow that type of business.

    ATF does not regulate where you operate your firearms business from, only that it is in conformance with all local codes regulations and ordnances.

    The landlord may not have the right to deny you from keeping a firearm(s) for personal use in your apartment but may be able to deny you from operating a home business of any type.

    Apply for a small business license. State the nature of the business and the city should be able to tell you if it conforms. It is some times possible to obtain a license for a conditional use.

    It would seem that you might also be able to talk to your landlord. Find out what his concerns are. He may be concerned about his liability. He may also be anti-firearm.
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    Senior Member Array mrreynolds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    In order to obtain a FFL you need a place of business and a business license, Almost every incorporated town or city has zoning regulations. Some types of home occupations are permitted by most local zoning regulations. These types of businesses might include specific types of professional home office such as architect, engineer or accountant. Often there will be a stipulation that the professional office cannot have more than one employee. There may also be a list of prohibited types of home business.

    You will need to study the NYC zoning code first to make certain that a home occupation can be used for retail firearms sales. You mentioned Internet sales. Some cities actually regulate what types of Internet business can be conducted from a home based business.

    It is not at all unusual for a retail storefront to be zoned for a firearms business but the landlord will not allow that type of business.

    ATF does not regulate where you operate your firearms business from, only that it is in conformance with all local codes regulations and ordnances.

    The landlord may not have the right to deny you from keeping a firearm(s) for personal use in your apartment but may be able to deny you from operating a home business of any type.

    Apply for a small business license. State the nature of the business and the city should be able to tell you if it conforms. It is some times possible to obtain a license for a conditional use.

    It would seem that you might also be able to talk to your landlord. Find out what his concerns are. He may be concerned about his liability. He may also be anti-firearm.
    As per my lease agreement only provisions & agreements signed by myself and the property owner which were attached to my lease at the time of signing are valid. We signed no such provisions or agreements. The property owner is just an . The Second Amendment Foundation is writing a letter to him requesting a copy of any signed agreements or a letter stating that no illegal firearms are allowed by all tenants not just me or face further legal action.

    As far as the FFL01 i've contacted members of the Zoning board on the NYC Council requesting clarification of an internet based business but the ATF investigator stated that I could aquire a seperate office address. They're called Virtual Offices out here or shared office space so I did but I'm still waiting on the final word from the ATF.

    You can view my attached lease regulations as well as my letters to ATF and the NYC Council.

    [ATF Letter] [NYC Council]
    Attached Files

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrreynolds View Post
    As per my lease agreement only provisions & agreements signed by myself and the property owner which were attached to my lease at the time of signing are valid. We signed no such provisions or agreements. The property owner is just an . The Second Amendment Foundation is writing a letter to him requesting a copy of any signed agreements or a letter stating that no illegal firearms are allowed by all tenants not just me or face further legal action.

    As far as the 01-FFL i've contacted members of the Zoning board on the NYC Council requesting clarification of an internet based business but the ATF investigator stated that I could aquire a seperate office address. They're called Virtual Offices out here or shared office space so I did but I'm still waiting on the final word from the ATF.

    You can view my attached lease regulations as well as my letters to ATF and the NYC Council.

    [ATF Letter] [NYC Council]
    I will have a look at your attachments. I am sure what you are telling me is truthful. Just getting a full permit to carry in NYC is a feat of its own.

    ATF does a complete and through investigation. Two things they always check for is a valid place of business and approval of CLEO.

    I have a questions for you. Suppose you win your case with the landlord. Will he terminate your lease when it is due for renewal?

    I was also going to mention the possibility of operating from another location. Any place you can park a computer at can server as your place of business providing local zoning approves it.

    Over 1,000,000 people operate home occupations in NYC. As with any home business, what zoning does not want is a lot of extra traffic. They won't allow some types of consulting businesses where clients are coming and going all the time. The other thing they usually have a problem with is too many deliveries. They don't want FedEx and UPS picking up and delivering every day. They may grant you a conditional license but it might have some stipulations such as no inventory of any sort may be stored. This would include ammo and firearms.

    NYC CLEO might also have something to say about your business too. Do they act as point of contact for background checks when buying a firearm or does it go through NICS? Did they wet finger print you for your FFL application? They might tell you that you need a secure safe. ATF does not care. What Securing a firearm means to ATF is to make sure that you have about a dozen or so extra cable locks on hand all the time.

    I would also get some additional clarification from BATFE regarding what they told you about a virtual office. There is no such thing. In fact multiple sites need to be permitted separately. When you enter an order from you computer to purchase a firearm it must be done from where your business license is posted. When you send a firearm to another FFL, it is supposed to be from where your business license is. What ATF does allow is off site storage and warehouse space. If your business license allows any over the counter traffic such as sales or transfers, the ATF form 4474 must be completed at your place of business. You probably also know that you cannot operate from a P.O. Box.
    ATF allows electronic record keeping of your bound book but if you are audited, (ATF has the right to do this at any time) they want the bound book printed out and filed in last in first out order. It can get tricky because you must record the receipt of a firearm within 7 days but recording the disposition and date can be all over the place. You can be fined and loose your FFL for some minor infractions. There is a bill proposed to lessen the penalties for accounting infractions but it has not yet been introduced to the senate that I am aware of.

    Also, If you obtain an 01-FFL, you do not need a C&R license. You can buy and sell any curios and relics with an 01.

    Do make an appointment to speak in person to planning and zoning. If they require a hearing for a conditional use license, it could take weeks to get on the docket. It would be a shame for your FFL application to expire in the meantime. I'm not sure how city government is structured in NYC but If a hearing is necessary, it will most likely also require the endorsement of your alderman or ward captain.

    Keep us posted.

    EDIT:

    I should have read the letter you sent to BATFE. You mentioned that you plan to or are selling out of the country. If so, you will need to comply with the Arms export Control Act of 1976. Import/export is not regulated by CGA. You will however need a General Export license From the US Dept of Commerce.

    Also, please be aware that most firearms can not be sold internationally to most countries for reasons of national security, foreign policy, etc.. Many parts and accessories, not regulated by ATF, such as lasers, some scopes, replacement barrels, air guns and cross bows are regulated by the US Dept. of Commerce. Manufactures and distributors also may prohibit international sales due to trade agreements with other countries or short supply.

    If you want to get into import/export, you really need to know international commerce law and tariff restrictions.
    Last edited by SIGP250; August 16th, 2010 at 07:22 AM.
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    I did not know that it was legal to forbid legally owned firearms like that
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    Senior Member Array mrreynolds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    I will have a look at your lease. I am sure what you are telling me is truthful. Just getting a full permit to carry in NYC is a feat of its own.

    ATF does a complete and through investigation. Two things they always check for is a valid place of business and approval of CLEO.

    I have a questions for you. Suppose you win your case with the landlord. Will he terminate your lease when it is due for renewal?

    I was also going to mention the possibility of operating from another location. Any place you can park a computer at can server as your place of business providing local zoning approves it.

    Over 1,000,000 people operate home occupations in NYC. As with any home business, what zoning does not want is a lot of extra traffic. They won't allow some types of consulting businesses where clients are coming and going all the time. The other thing they usually have a problem with is too many deliveries. They don't want Fedex and UPS picking up and delivering every day. They may grant you a conditional license but it might have some stipulations such as no inventory of any sort may be stored. This would include ammo and firearms.

    NYC CLEO might also have something to say about your business too. Do they act as point of contact for background checks when buying a firearm or does it go through NICS? Did they wet finger print you for your FFL application? They might tell you that you need a secure safe. ATF does not care. What Securing a firearm means to ATF is to make sure that you have about a dozen or so extra cable locks on hand all the time.

    I would also get some additional clarification from BATFE regarding what they told you about a virtual office. There is no such thing. In fact multiple sites need to be permitted separately. When you enter an order from you computer to purchase a firearm it must be done from where your business license is posted. When you send a firearm to another FFL, it is supposed to be from where your business license is. What ATF does allow is off site storage and warehouse space. If your business license allows any over the counter traffic such as sales or transfers, the ATF form 4474 must be completed at your place of business. You probably also know that you cannot operate from a P.O. Box.
    ATF allows electronic record keeping of your bound book but if you are audited, (ATF has the right to do this at any time) they want the bound book printed out and filed in last in first out order. It can get tricky because you must record the receipt of a firearm within 7 days but recording the disposition and date can be all over the place. You can be fined and loose your FFL for some minor infractions. There is a bill proposed to lessen the penalties for accounting infractions but it has not yet been introduced to the senate that I am aware of.

    Also, If you obtain an 01-FFL, you do not need a C&R license. You can buy and sell any curios and relics with an 01.

    Do make an appointment to speak in person to planning and zoning. If they require a hearing for a conditional use license, it could take weeks to get on the docket. It would be a shame for your FFL application to expire in the meantime. I'm not sure how city government is structured in NYC but If a hearing is necessary, it will most likely also require the endorsement of your alderman or ward captain.

    Keep us posted.
    We have something in New York City known as lawful occupation he cannot terminate my lease unless I violate my lease otherwise it has to be renewed and offered as a renewal lease with the same terms of the previous lease.

    Background check is NICS. I spoke to zoning they just recite whatever the book say's that why I went to the NYC Council. My information is being reviewed for consideration as possible legislation for internet home occupation based business.

    I'm more interested in law enforcement sales I qualify for through my SBA HUBZone certification for set-aside contracts. NYPD told me internet sales are between myself and the ATF as the NYPD regulates physical over the counter retail sales in NYC.

    I don't conduct retail sales my company is internet based. If I can offer a better price the purchaser can purchase through me I arrange it through my distributor who drop ships it to another FFL (transfer) and he/she (purchaser) can pickup the firearm from retail FFL in their state/location. I never have to receive the firearm.

    I had to point this out to my ATF investigator as he stated he never heard of it.

    FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE 2005
    ATF Publication 5300.4 Revised September 2005


    Procedures: (1) Where licensee “A” places an order for firearms or ammunition with licensee “B” and “B” transmits the order to licensee “C” for direct shipment (drop shipment) to “A,” a certified copy of the license of “A” must be forwarded to “C” prior to shipment of the order. On shipment of the order to “A,” “C” shall enter in his bound record the disposition of the firearms or ammunition to “A.” On receipt of the shipment by “A,” he shall enter the acquisition of the firearms or ammunition in his bound record. Both licensees shall make such entries in the manner prescribed by regulations. Since the actual movement of the firearms or ammunition is between “C” and “A” and since “B” does not take physical possession of them, “B” will make no entry in his bound record. However, “B” should make appropriate entries or notations in his commercial records to reflect the transaction.

    (2) For example, where a licensed dealer orders firearms from a wholesaler and the wholesaler requests drop shipment from the manufacturer to the dealer, a certified copy of the dealer’s license shall accompany the wholesaler’s order to the manufacturer. The manufacturer shall enter in his bound record the disposition of the firearms to the dealer, and the dealer shall enter the acquisition of the firearms in his bound record reflecting receipt from the manufacturer. The wholesaler, although a part of the business transaction, neither acquires nor disposes of the firearms and would, therefore, enter nothing of the transaction in his bound record.

    BATFE.FFL.REG.2005.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrreynolds View Post
    We have something in New York City known as lawful occupation he cannot terminate my lease unless I violate my lease otherwise it has to be renewed and offered as a renewal lease with the same terms of the previous lease.

    I did have a look at an NYC landlord handbook. I read somewhere that the landlord can make a demand for increased rent if he incurs additional liability due to allowing a home occupation.

    Background check is NICS. I spoke to zoning they just recite whatever the book say's that why I went to the NYC Council. My information is being reviewed for consideration as possible legislation for internet home occupation based business.

    I'm more interested in law enforcement sales I qualify for through my SBA HUBZone certification for set-aside contracts. NYPD told me internet sales are between myself and the ATF as the NYPD regulates physical over the counter retail sales in NYC.

    I don't conduct retail sales my company is internet based. If I can offer a better price the purchaser can purchase through me I arrange it through my distributor who drop ships it to another FFL (transfer) and he/she (purchaser) can pickup the firearm from retail FFL in their state/location. I never have to receive the firearm.

    I had to point this out to my ATF investigator as he stated he never heard of it.

    FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS REFERENCE GUIDE 2005
    ATF Publication 5300.4 Revised September 2005


    Procedures: (1) Where licensee “A” places an order for firearms or ammunition with licensee “B” and “B” transmits the order to licensee “C” for direct shipment (drop shipment) to “A,” a certified copy of the license of “A” must be forwarded to “C” prior to shipment of the order. On shipment of the order to “A,” “C” shall enter in his bound record the disposition of the firearms or ammunition to “A.” On receipt of the shipment by “A,” he shall enter the acquisition of the firearms or ammunition in his bound record. Both licensees shall make such entries in the manner prescribed by regulations. Since the actual movement of the firearms or ammunition is between “C” and “A” and since “B” does not take physical possession of them, “B” will make no entry in his bound record. However, “B” should make appropriate entries or notations in his commercial records to reflect the transaction.

    (2) For example, where a licensed dealer orders firearms from a wholesaler and the wholesaler requests drop shipment from the manufacturer to the dealer, a certified copy of the dealer’s license shall accompany the wholesaler’s order to the manufacturer. The manufacturer shall enter in his bound record the disposition of the firearms to the dealer, and the dealer shall enter the acquisition of the firearms in his bound record reflecting receipt from the manufacturer. The wholesaler, although a part of the business transaction, neither acquires nor disposes of the firearms and would, therefore, enter nothing of the transaction in his bound record.

    BATFE.FFL.REG.2005.pdf
    You are a retailer. Sales by Internet are still sales. You will need to register your business with the NY Secretary of state and also obtain a Federal Tax ID number. You will collect quarterly State sales tax on anything you sell in NY. You may also need to register what is known as a fictitious name with the NY Secretary of State if the name of your website is different than your company name. Knight... DBA xxx.com. If you form an LLC S-type or otherwise, you will pay a registered agent each year or you can declare yourself as agent with your state.

    I am very aware of BATFE regulations and drop shipping firearms. If you are only buying from one distributor with a fulfillment program, only your distributor needs a copy from the FFL the distributor is sending to. As stated, You do not record this in your bound book. Records of the transaction are for your accounting. They are not audited by ATF.

    ATF Does not require a storefront and they do not care if your business is 100% Internet based. You only need to state your hours of operation. I think it has to be at least 20 hours a week but you can make it 1 hour a day plus Saturday and Sunday or whatever you want. They really don't care as long as you have some regular hours of business, even if Internet.

    Some firearms are manufacture direct. To get the best possible discounts, it is best to be a stocking dealer. Drop shipping may seem convenient and painless but you pay for it. I use any of 10 or more distributors. The pricing differences and item availability can differ quite dramatically. Why limit yourself? Most distributors won't drop ship. Those that do might require a line of credit but it is to your atvantage to have more than one source.

    Should you wish to purchase a firearm from your distributor for yourself, you do not fill out ATF-4473 however you must record the transaction in your bound book.

    As to firearms carry in your building. I presume you have an unrestricted carry license or permit for a handgun. I know you cannot carry a loaded rifle of shotgun in public but I don't think the landlord can keep you from having one or both in your apartment. I do not believe your landlord has any grounds to deny your 2A right. Send him the text from The Chicago vs. McDonald Supreme Court decision.
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    Running a business out of an apartment is usually a no no, unless a there is a specific stipulation allowing it. Also, I'm sure zoning laws will come into play. However considering the latest SCOTUS decision, I don't think your landlord can forbid you from excercising a constitutionally protected right. It's the business aspect that's hurting you. What does your lease say about running a business and what zoning laws apply?
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    My company is an LLC. I live in an apartment in Manhattan stocking is not an option as I don't have a physical store. As far as zoning it's explained within this letter. [LINK]

    Like I stated I'm internet based all I do from home is paperwork zoning allows a home occupation professional office.

    The ATF investigator called me today 08.16.2010 to arrange my on-site interview at my shared/virtual office location on 08.20.2010. If I missed any questions please resend.

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    My message to the Zoning Department.

    Message 08.03.10:

    Is it correct that the city zoning bans individuals with a tax payer number from having an internet based business from a residential home where products are sold on the internet but shipped directly from the manufacturer to the purchaser?

    Response 08.17.10

    Dear Mr. Reynolds:

    An internet business, as you described in your e-mail message to the Department of City Planning, where orders are placed on-line and products are shipped directly from a manufacturer to a customer, is permitted as a home occupation, provided all other provisions relating to home occupations are complied with, as set forth in the definition of “home occupation’ in Section 12-10 of the New York City Zoning Resolution. The Department of City Planning does not make determinations regarding zoning conformance or compliance. Such determinations are made by the Department f Buildings located at 280 Broadway, New York, 10007. If you would like this information in letter form, please send a check in the amount of $110.00, made payable to the Department of City Planning, to, Zoning Division, Department of City Planning, 22 Reade Street, New York, 10007. A letter will be mailed to you within a week of receipt.

    Director,
    Zoning Division
    Department of city Planning.

    I will not be acquiring the letter

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