Conversation with an Anti (Warning long post)

Conversation with an Anti (Warning long post)

This is a discussion on Conversation with an Anti (Warning long post) within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I posted the following link on my facebook page. Youtube video about the UN's attempt at a Gun Control treaty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDMeDmV0ufU One of my "now ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Conversation with an Anti (Warning long post)

    I posted the following link on my facebook page. Youtube video about the UN's attempt at a Gun Control treaty.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDMeDmV0ufU

    One of my "now ex" friends, posted a comment under it saying, "Now that's a great idea. Sign me up."

    So I sent him a message. This is the conversation as it went. Mind you, this person is in the news media business.

    Me: Sign you up for what Ron?

    Ron: To get rid of all those unnecessary handguns.

    Me: Ron, guess who will have all the guns. Criminals Ron! Is that what you want? Do you really think that they are going to turn in their guns? Is that the way you want it? So that nobody has a gun to defend themselves against criminals, the very ones that criminals will always find a way to get ahold of and use.

    Ron: Yes. I think criminals get their guns from reputable dealers. So do people who are not criminals until they turn their guns on someone in anger.

    How many people die from guns in America each year?

    How many people save their lives by shooting would be armed criminals each year?

    It's a fantasy argument you're selling. An armed fantasy excuse that allows tens of thousands of deaths each year, plain and simple.

    Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    en.wikipedia.org
    Gun violence in the United States is an intensely debated political issue in the United States. Gun related violence is most common in poor urban areas and in conjunction with gang violence, often involving juveniles or young adults.[1][2] Gun violence is not new in the United States, with the assas...

    Me: Those tens of thousands of deaths are very very much the result of criminals using guns on innocent people.

    The number of law abiding citizens that use a gun on anyone in anger is trivial compared to the number that save lives.

    You are living in a fantasy world Ron if you think that taking guns away from law abiding citizens is going to make a difference.

    It's already been proven that when law abiding citizens don't have guns, that crime rates go up. Why is that? Because criminals know they then have a gun free zone where they don't have to worry about getting shot by a law abiding citizen who carries. Look at how crime rates went up in Australia after they banned guns.
    Why is the crime rate so much higher in "gun free zones" such as Washington DC, New York, Chicago, California.?

    Wake up Ron, I didn't know you were a sheep.

    Just last week in North Carolina a criminal waltzed into a convenience store pointed his gun at the female attendant behind the counter and "pulled the trigger" the gun went click. She would have been dead if he knew what he was doing and had a round in the chamber. He then cycled the slide to chamber a round so he could do what he intended, but unfortunately for him, he didn't see the woman's husband sitting at the end of the counter. A law abiding citizen with a conceal carry permit who put 3 rounds into the piece of **** before he was able to murder his wife. If it hadn't been for her husband being there and having a gun, she would be dead.

    The criminal was not hit in any vital organs, lived to make it to the hospital and is now in jail awaiting trial.

    It's not a fantasy Ron. It's real life. Criminals "will" always have guns and when law abiding citizens are unable to defend themselves, crime rates will go up all over the country.

    You can't carry a cop around with you Ron.

    Wait until two or three or even one criminal breaks into your house in the middle of the night or even the middle of the afternoon and kills one of your sons. You'll wish you had a gun to protect them then. The cops won't be there until after the fact, to clean up the mess and make reports.

    Continue living in your fantasy Ron.


    Me again: Also Ron, criminals don't get their guns from reputable dealers. That's why reputable dealers have to follow the law and run background checks on those purchasing handguns.

    Criminals get their guns by breaking into houses and stealing them. Even if they take away guns from law abiding citizens, doesn't mean that the supply will be gone and criminals won't be able to get them.

    How many people die in the country every year from drunk drivers Ron? Why not make drinking illegal, and shut down all the bars, and outlaw liquor and beer. More people die from booze and alcohol related drinking and driving, etc. than from law abiding citizens with guns.

    Ron: Driving a car has a legitimate purpose other than death.
    Guns, especally handguns, are manufacured specifically to kill.

    Ron again: Criminals get their guns from reputable dealers, Tracy. They just make the sales under the table. I have an uncle who's been arrested for it. Used to go to gun shows and sell them before he was caught. A friend had an ex husband who did the same thing, until he was caught.

    In each case they sold to undercover agents who posed as just someone who wanted a gun but didn't want to wait and go through all that unnecessary legal nonsense.

    I have a feeling a very small percentage of dealers ever get caught.

    Me: Duh!

    That's the problem with sheep Ron. They think that all handguns are bad. Yet they refuse to see the facts.

    1. Handguns exist. They have already been created by man.
    2. Criminals get guns any way they can.
    3. Law abiding citizens mostly purchase from gun stores who must run background checks on these individuals before selling it to them.
    4. They will "never" be able to collect all the handguns in this country. Criminals will "not" turn theirs in. That means criminals will be the only ones with handguns.
    5. It's been proven already. No handguns = higher crime.

    Me again: Then your uncle was a criminal. The friends ex husband was a criminal too. What they did was criminal. Drugs are illegal. Where do all the drugs come from Ron? Mexico? Across the border. They get smuggled in, the majority of them. If they make guns illegal, where do you think they will come from? Mexico Ron. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

    The undercover agents were misfits from NY I bet that were sent down to make illegal buys so they could catch those dealers selling under the table. NY Mayor had everything to do with that. Trying to spread his anti-gun ways across the rest of the country.

    Me again: Drinking and Driving doesn't have legitimate cause. More people die every year from drinking and driving than from handguns.

    He quite responding by this point.

    Guess you can't argue with the Maybe I should drop him from my list. I knew him when I was in the military. Havn't seen him for over 20 years.
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Yeah this guy is the stereotypical tool. Too bad.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Your conversation sounds way to familiar...I've had just about the same conversation with many an anti. They will not get it until something happens to them or someone they are close to.

    This is a free country, those who don't like guns are free to not own them. Those who don't believe in God are free to do so. What's the first thing they do when the crap hits the fan? Call someone with a gun and pray they get there in time.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  4. #4
    JD
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    Only someone that twisted would call a dealer selling illegally a "reputable dealer.

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Someone who would not shoot another person under any circumstances what-so-ever has no use for a gun and therefor thinks that no one else does either.

  6. #6
    Distinguished Member Array mr.stuart's Avatar
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    I do not debate with anti's,why bother?

  7. #7
    Member Array Illusive Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr.stuart View Post
    I do not debate with anti's,why bother?
    I'm the same way. If a man doesn't see the need to defend himself and his family, he is a fool. My momma said never argue with a fool. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you to death with stupidity.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Just because someone doesn't like guns doesn't mean you should call them insulting names. Treating Ron as if he was an idiot and telling him to "wake up Ron , I didn't know you were a sheep" are insults that close doors quickly. If you really wanted to enlighten him to the positive side of gun ownership then educate him with facts and reference. Instead you became abusive and insulting. Once you did that you closed the door to an open mined discussion.

    I have friends that don't like guns but they will remain my friends even though we don't see eye to eye on this one topic. There are many other topics of interest we do enjoy. Guns are only one small area of disagreement all though I do occasionally try to enlighten them in a respectful manor. It's a shame that you would end a friendship just because someone doesn't agree with your view on guns.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    It seems we have a case of individuals that canít handle their debates very well. Name calling is only productive for sporting events. Also why call him an ex friend because of such a little issue?

  10. #10
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    I think tkruf did fine considering that he might as well have been talking to a brick wall. This was not a debate, it was a conversation between two people with entirely different points of view. Tkruf took his opportunity to speak to a person in the media who has some gross misconceptions. Crime, where criminals get their guns and why he carries a gun were discussed among other things. Maybe his friend will now go back and check some facts before shooting from the hip again.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Well, the first mistake was.... you can't use FACTS in a discussion with someone who believes everything MSNBC tells them to believe. Facts, just get in the way of things, ya know.

    It appears he doesn't want to explain how he came up with these things, he needs to check the teleprompter.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    your get rid of gun argument is a fallacy and this is why....
    God made man, Colt made them equal, which makes any 90 lb female with a gun the equal of any 300 lb would be rapitst...
    guns are used successfully over 1,000,000 (per anti gun time life) a year to defend human life....
    if gun control is so effective then why is it that city's like Chicago and NY have such high crime rates and city's such as Clearwater, and Huston with more liberal gun laws do not....
    Study more guns = less crime, verified by the FBI crime stats....
    states with more liberal gun laws have a far lower incidence of robbery, rape, assault, and murder than those with more stringent gun laws, again supported by the statistics of the various states...
    when such liberal laws are passed crime rates decrease per state stats...
    criminals do not obey the law, courts have rendered that for criminals to do so would be self incrimination, hence gun laws are only for the law abiding citizen...
    Hitler though gun control was a wonderful idea, the Jews did not....
    if being unarmed is so great then why is it that the top anti gun crowd have armed guards....
    OK I have a few more but usually by now I have shut down the anti and they are leaving in total disaray.....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  13. #13
    Member Array Illusive Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon J View Post
    your get rid of gun argument is a fallacy and this is why....
    God made man, Colt made them equal, which makes any 90 lb female with a gun the equal of any 300 lb would be rapitst...
    guns are used successfully over 1,000,000 (per anti gun time life) a year to defend human life....
    if gun control is so effective then why is it that city's like Chicago and NY have such high crime rates and city's such as Clearwater, and Huston with more liberal gun laws do not....
    Study more guns = less crime, verified by the FBI crime stats....
    states with more liberal gun laws have a far lower incidence of robbery, rape, assault, and murder than those with more stringent gun laws, again supported by the statistics of the various states...
    when such liberal laws are passed crime rates decrease per state stats...
    criminals do not obey the law, courts have rendered that for criminals to do so would be self incrimination, hence gun laws are only for the law abiding citizen...
    Hitler though gun control was a wonderful idea, the Jews did not....
    if being unarmed is so great then why is it that the top anti gun crowd have armed guards....
    OK I have a few more but usually by now I have shut down the anti and they are leaving in total disaray.....
    Your point is so valid. I live not far from Chicago, where the violent crime rate is sickening. I grew up in East St. Louis, IL where I saw violence on a constant basis. I never saw a drug dealer or criminal with a legal weapons and a Firearm Owner ID (FOID). All I got to see was a disarmed population where criminal ran rampant because they were unchallenged. Chicago doesn't allow gun ownership if you live in city limits, but just last month 2 little girls were shot to death while playing on the sidewalk, because some a**hole decided to ride down the street shooting a gun. I've lived in Illinois all my life (except of military time) and I can assure you that anti-gun supporters simply make victims out of us all.

  14. #14
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    Ditto JD on this point:
    Criminals get their guns from reputable dealers, Tracy. They just make the sales under the table. I have an uncle who's been arrested for it. Used to go to gun shows and sell them before he was caught. A friend had an ex husband who did the same thing, until he was caught.
    This, um, fine gentleman equates straight up criminal behavior - illegally selling guns - to "reputable dealers." So, my corner meth dealer (if I had one) would be a legitmate pharmacist too, right? The utter idiocy in this statement immediately revokes Ron's right to ever be involved in any intelligent conversation ever again.

    And tkruf, he threw you a giant softball with the "guns kill x per year, how many do they save?" question. Point him to all the studies that show that they are used hundreds of thousands (at the very, very low end of the estimates) to as many as two million times per year to deter or stop a violent crime. He wanted to know, you should have told him...
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Sounds like an interesting discussion. Sounds like he still doesn't quite get it. He's chokin' on the Kool-Aid and doesn't know it.

    Guns, especally handguns, are manufacured specifically to kill.
    Guns are manufactured to poke holes effectively at a distance. Those holes can be for legitimate, legal purposes or illegal ones. Just like butter knives, intended to cut, but which can be used to kill or to slice butter. Guns are made to poke holes, nothing more. Of course, they get marketed to all sorts of sub-groups of people, since the draw to some people is target shooting, hunting, warming a safe with a gun, crime, or whatever else floats their boat. Guns are made to poke holes, but it's criminals who do bad things with them, while tens of millions of people just in the USA use them for perfectly reasonable, legal and appropriate purposes such as acquiring meat or engaging in recreation.

    Criminals get their guns from reputable dealers, Tracy.
    ... implying reputable dealers are the problem. Wrong, beyond a small percentage who either unwittingly end up doing so or who are knowingly engaging in criminal activity themselves by knowingly selling to criminals.

    Some dealers knowingly become criminals to sell to other criminals, yes. Some dealers also end up unknowingly selling to people who otherwise appear on the up-and-up. The majority of dealers run legitimate businesses, as with anything else.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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