Open Carry in a CCW State?
This is a discussion on Open Carry in a CCW State? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I have participated in this forum because I haven't had to read the kind of provoking sentiment that started this thread. Go ahead, open carry ...
June 30th, 2006 12:24 AM
I have participated in this forum because I haven't had to read the kind of provoking sentiment that started this thread. Go ahead, open carry where it's legal.
The speed question becomes nearly inconsequential with a little more effort and dedication to practice. Not so with the element of surprise. After an ambush, how fast you can draw from a speed holster matters not when guns are already pointed at you. This often happened in the wild west during the heyday of open carry.
A distraction or opening can create an opportunity to engage from concealed carry. Diving for cover may or may not be an option, but drawing into a hail of bullets would not be a first choice. I do not know of any incident where a civilian has suffered due to open carry, but there have been many open carry disarms with poor outcomes in law enforcement and military records. I do know many cases that enabled the victim to get back into the fight because of the element of surprise through concealed carry.
If there comes a time when open carry would be an advantage, then the mere uplift or swing of a cover garment will get the job done. This is an important topic. There is no absolute right or wrong way to carry. We need to rethink the arguments, and then go ahead, in some situations, open carry. We might ask ourselves if there are any other motives or agendas that are influencing our attitude when we take such a strident view that starts with confrontational language.
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
June 30th, 2006 12:32 AM
Concealed weapon carry: 28 yrs. & State licensed legal carry: 2 years
With assistance and understanding from moderator Bud White the following is a repost of what I'd originally posted in the thread toward the gentleman who was asked to leave his bank due to him carrying openly.
I'd made the mistake of not reading the entire thread before posting there and did not know that it had prior been asked that folks not post open vs. closed CCW type posts.
He suggested that I repost it here being more appropriate as based on the topicality.
Here is that prior post in it's entirety:
To stay on topic for this thread I literally grewup carrying weapons concealed for the sole purpose of defense nd have been doing so 28 yrs. now. My mother without my asking got me my first pocket knife when I was 8 and had me carry it in my pocket while walking to school and around my neighborhood as she was concerned about my safety and into my college years she'd buy me a knife if ever I asked her for one toward use for defense. I grewup in very poor areas of DC and MD (P.G. County) to which crime was a daily occuring norm of life. My mother herself grew up poor in MS defending herself from five older brothers as well as neighbors and pretty much everyone else. She's got some wild tales and is the person who taught me how to fight, defend myself and survive by what ever means necessary even it be taking off my shoe. I'm not kidding either as that works.
Originally Posted by Janq
Through the years for the most part I carried various weapons knives, small bats, and later firearms too illegally. I'm from Wash., D.C. and MD where it's not at all legal to even posses a firearm (DC) and in MD to get an LTC means jumping through more hoops than a circus poodle, and you have to be connected to boot.
As of the past 2 years I decided to go ahead and apply for an LTC to carry legally. I now hold a resident CHP from VA as well as a resident LTC-A from MA which itself was a renewal against a sporting & hunting MA LTC I'd had 12 years ago and let expire upon then moving out of state.
Today as I continue to carry something on me most of the time (roughly 80+ % of the time) as advised by mom be it a knife or sidearm (she was strongy anti-gun even as her brothers & father were hunters) as well as less conventional items like my shoes, or using my belt as a whip/impact device (metal buckle) and the basic idea that _everything_ is a weapon as long as you think to take advantage of it.
As for open carry I've learned that surprise and stealth works wonders and it has done well for me thus far in all manner of adventures. If I were a police or military then yes I'd carry openly as it would be easier to carry as such and quicker to deploy. As a civilian it's actually defensive for me to not stand out than to open carry even as it's legal in VA albeit generally frowned upon.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
June 30th, 2006 05:48 AM
I think it's evident that to open/conceal carry is dependent on the state you live...according to the posts here, TX and FL you are prohibited from OC; whereas VA and AZ it is not a problem (in fact, required to OC in VA restaurants that serve alcohol).
IMHO, it comes down to training and preference--it's not that difficult to train and practice using a cover garment (jacket, button-down shirt, t-shirt). It is up to the individual shooter to decide whether he/she wants OC or CC (based on individual circumstances).
June 30th, 2006 06:08 AM
As for me the only reasons I would open carry
Is when I'm hiking, or out hunting, or downtown Deadwood during Wild Bill Days in Deadwood decked out in all my glory. While there is a tactical advantage, there are to many people now days that whine about guns. I would rather avoid having to explain why I carry to someone who really doesn't care why but is trying to push their opinion on me.
Another thing about open carry there will always be those who say your looking for trouble, which is totally antithetical to what the majority of law abiding gun owners want.
I have a general rule I don't push my views on others, I don't give my opinon unless someone is stupid enough to ask or push their opinons on me. Open carry would violate this rule.
But that's just my plug nickle
Last edited by Dakotaranger; June 30th, 2006 at 06:45 AM.
"[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
They are left in full possession of them."
Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
June 30th, 2006 09:08 AM
As each persons' state of residence dictates the method of carry available to them, this thread is more revelant to some than others.
I live in Louisiana where open carry is 100% legal, but rarely seen. I have open carried in the past while waiting for my CCW, but now that I have the ability to conceal, I feel uncomfortable OC'ing around town. I still OC at home and in my neighborhood, primarily because of the number of riff-raff seen around here. When I go to the gas station or supermarket, I don't want to stand in line with someone behind me having access to my weapon, even with a retention strap.
I have mixed emotions about the sheeple and their fear of guns. Sometimes I want to have them see it and be able to explain that guns aren't bad, some people are. Other times, I'd rather no one know that I'm carring. I have had experiences of sheeple ask "why do you think you need to have a gun?", but typically I reply with something like "because I can" or " because you don't" or something like that.
Each person should follow the laws in their area and if OC is legal, try it and see if you feel more or less comfortable doing so. Personally, I think most would rather not in most cases, but when appropriate, want to have the choice.
Just my .02
June 30th, 2006 09:14 AM
You're one of those funny guys aren't you?
First things first: the name of this site is "Combat Carry" but all I see being discussed here are primarily concealed issues. Somewhat of a disparity in my opinion.
Secondly: the moderators seem sensitive when it comes to folks entering into some honest debate. So I guess everyone just better agree with everything that everyone else posts or the moderators will silence them using the age old fallback, "this is a private forum and you better...blah, blah, blah..."
Finally: let's have a heated debate regarding open versus concealed carry. May I suggest you begin your post with qualifying information such as the number of years you have carried concealed and/or open.
You go into people's houses and pee on the living room rug and then wonder why you aren't invited back.
Here is my reply to the rest of your post.
Both open and concealed for over 11 years as it suited me or circumstances dictated. I did not use one form or the other exclusively, but I definitely carried concealed more than open. Where I live now open carry is hit and miss due to no pre-emption law as Virginia has, so I do not carry open except on my property where I know I am ok.
There was a farmer in Hamilton, VA (IIRC may have been Paeonian Springs or Waterford, really all the same area to me) who carried openly. The criminals went to his house while he was in the field working and got one of his long guns. They waited for him at the end of the field and shot him. When caught and asked about it they said that they shot him because they knew he was armed and wanted to be sure he didn't have a chance to shoot them. Sorry don't have a link to the article, so I could be lying my backside off about it just trying to make you look bad. I just don't have time to search for it right now.
In northern VA the police are more your problem than any criminal will ever be. Two young gents being arrested at the Starbucks in Reston and having to get a lawyer to get their lawfully carried guns back. Getting stopped and "run" everytime you go shopping. Gets old after awhile and at 15-30 minutes per stop it chews up a lot of my time I could spend doing something else. The kicker was never knowing if I had to budget that time or not.
You make an assumption that folks think your gun is something it is not (cell phone or PDA) or they just don't see it. Are you are polling the people you walk by to see if they noticed your gun? Simply observing that they did not react to your gun doesn't mean they didn't see it, or know what it is. I would readily recognize the gun and probably the make and model, but I would have no more reaction to you than I would give anyone else.
When I carry concealed I like to carry two guns and sometimes three. When I open carried I only carried one. So here's an experiment for you to try. I can't do it because I don't live in VA anymore. Carry two or three guns open and see what the reaction is. I'm curious because to be honest I never did it while I lived in VA.
I'm also curious how many reloads you carry openly on your belt or rig and what sort of open carry rig you use? When I carried openly I usually had one reload in a pocket, not visible. The rig was an OWB strong side and I carried a revolver or semi-auto about 50/50.
What is the population of the area within 8-10 miles of your home?
What would be a good general description of the area you live in? For example, when I lived in Loudoun County my town was 384 people. However, that area of the county was in excess of 60K. The county total is like 260K. So while pockets of Loudoun are still rural/country, that is rapidly changing. Clarke county was totally different. IIRC the population in the entire county was 28000. So things were more rural/country there. The attitude towards guns in general was different as well. In my experience the further east I went the more hassle I had open carrying. The further west the less hassle.
Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.
June 30th, 2006 09:30 AM
As I said in an earlier post, concealed is my choice. No need to stand out. IMO, if I stay under the radar, it allows more options for me if something was to go down.
NC allows for open carry, but if you scare the wrong anti and get an overzelous DA with nothing else to do, you can get charged with "Going Armed to the Terror of the People", which states, " By common law in North Carolina, it is unlawful for a person to arm himself with any unusual and dangerous weapon, for the purpose of terrifying others, and go about on public highways in a manner to cause terror to others. The N.C. Supreme Court has said that any gun is an unusual and dangerous weapon for purposes of this offense. Therefore persons are cautioned as to the areas they frequent with firearms." Even if I did want to OC, it seems to me it's more of a hassle here.
June 30th, 2006 10:01 AM
I live in South Carolina, so it's a non-issue here, you either have a permit and carry concealed, or you don't carry. I wish there was an option to OC, in this state, but there's not. Even if it were an option, I would choose, concealed, I feel carrying in this manner offers an element of surprise. In my opinion, it's all preference, I feel if it's legal, carry however you want, just carry.
If you want a battle of the wit's, please come armed.
Ron Paul Revolution 2008!!!
June 30th, 2006 10:08 AM
if you dont have a CCW it doesnt? You sure about that? I was told otherwise by a state trooper. I was told for non ccw licensed carry it has to be in a closed case inside of a glovebox, center console, or trunk. and center console was actually only recent because of case law from 2 years ago.
Originally Posted by CapnBald
June 30th, 2006 10:38 AM
June 30th, 2006 11:11 AM
I bought my first handgun on my 21st birthday and applied and received my permit shortly after.
In public I carry concealed. That's my personal decision. TN does not clearly state that my handgun has to be concealed. In private, on my property, I carry openly. It's just more convenient that way.
In an ideal world people wouldn't be afraid of my gun because they would take it in context and realize I'm not a bank robber or a killer. But the fact is people are afraid and I don't want to be constantly inconvenienced by police to get called to the scene because oh my goodness, there's this woman with a gun. I also think that law enforcement, stretched thin as it is, would appreciate not having to be called out all the time and discover me minding my own business... again.
If it is legal to open carry in your state and you decide to carry that way, that's your right and your business. Just don't expect sympathy from me when people get afraid and boot you out of stores or call the police. That's just what intimidated, frightened people do, whether you consider their reasons valid or not.
"Americans have the will to resist because you have weapons. If you don't have a gun, freedom of speech has no power." - Yoshimi Ishikawa
June 30th, 2006 11:42 AM
Open carry 20+ years, concealed maybe 10 years (constantly carrying every moment? Just since MO got CCW, so 2 years).
I worked on a cattle ranch for years, carried a Super Blackhawk all the time in a western rig. Definitely was a fast setup. I don't know that anybody noticed, since I was way out in the brush. When I went to town - population maybe 100 - nobody cared since most had guns.
Started carrying concealed with a J-frame S&W since I'd moved to where there were more people and didn't want hassles with LE or sheep. Slower than the big 44 to get running.
Finally, back in MO and have a CCW, so carry a 45 or a 44 (yep, single action). I got a holster from Bob Mernickle for a Vaquero where it can be carried concealed. Would have never thought it, but that holster is every bit as fast as the big low Super Blackhawk, provided you don't mind setting your shirt on fire from the blast, since fast from the Mernickle holster means firing the gun just as it gets horizontal. That holster has kind of negated my thought that open carry is faster. Note, though, that I'm discussing fast and I'm using a single action revolver.
Regular carry is my little 1911. No, it's not quite as fast from IWB when compared to a big gun hanging on my hip. Have never timed it so can't give specific numbers. My wife says it's a blur with the 44 but she can see arm movement and the gun coming up with the 1911.
But, I'm not carrying a firearm thinking of being in a quick-draw gunfight. If I am having to draw while looking at a bad guy who is firing at me, it's just not good at all - all I would have is surprise by drawing from CCW. Hopefully, my awareness will preclude that necessity. And since I'm not LE, if my awareness tells me that some situation is bad, I am leaving and calling 911.
I don't have any issues with open carry. People should do what they think is best. Personally, I'm pretty private and don't really want a bunch of gun questions or looks or anything. I have tattoos but I don't walk around in a tank top displaying them either. Just don't like attention. So, I choose to conceal my carry guns.
June 30th, 2006 11:49 AM
interesting thread - I'll bite
Well, I guess I'll start with just keep it to the point and try to stay level headed. As for # of years: I've been carrying both Concealed and Open for the last 6 years. I'm not that old and don't have the 20+ years of formal training some have here, although I do have some training with my firearms under my belt. As far as my reasons for both types of carry and how often it usually depends on my mood at the time, the weather, the type of clothing/garments I'm wearing and where I'm planning on going for the day. So it really is up in the air.
The decision whether to carry open or concealed for me is changed on somewhat hourly basis. I'm not as concerned about a BG getting my gun during a struggle or taking it from me unawares. I have been training in various forms(never limit yourself to one style!) of Hand2Hand combat since I was in grade school and am quite well adept to defending myself without my sidearm.
June 30th, 2006 12:14 PM
Open Carry vs. Concealed Carry is truly a matter of choice unless the State you live in makes it for you by banning OC.
Some prefer the open access to the weapon and some perhaps like to show the world they are armed.
I have carried concealed for 42 years and don't even give it a second thought. I don't have to answer questions from IQ challenged Clerks, Security Guards, or Gun Hating Liberals. I've never felt that the concealment has hampered my ability to have the weapon available when I needed it.
As I began by stating, it is a matter of choice. If you carry, carry as you choose. I will do likewise.
""If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying, I either won't need more or, more won't help me.""
June 30th, 2006 12:36 PM
Not legal here, so it is irrelevant. But from personal experience, I am more comfortable going about my business with a concealed weapon than openly wearing one.
Even on a duty belt in uniform I didin't like having my weapon in public view.
Out of sight out of mind.............
If light rails were needed on handguns John Browning would have included it on the 1911.
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