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Open Carry in a CCW State?

This is a discussion on Open Carry in a CCW State? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Here in Arizona I have a CCW but still at times when I go out will and open carry Arizona also being an open carry ...

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Thread: Open Carry in a CCW State?

  1. #31
    Member Array lostone1413's Avatar
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    Open Carry in a CCW State?

    Here in Arizona I have a CCW but still at times when I go out will and open carry Arizona also being an open carry state to. The reason at times I open carry is because I see so many from CA the North East and Illinois moving into Arizona I feel it is at times a way to show them this is Arizona if you want life to be like were you left go back. How many out their feel like I do that being if you live in an open carry state at times you should open carry if for nothing more to remind them they are now in Arizona? I get some funny looks when I open carry in little LA. That being Sedona. But hey this is my state if they don't like it get the H**L out. Guess that is how I look at it
    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
    John F. Kennedy


  2. #32
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    Angry

    What Holsters do you guys like for open carry??? also...what Brommeland holster is best for concealed carry?
    I like Leather but, a lot of other people say they like KYDEX...
    Is Kydex BETTER than leather for open carry???
    Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks!




    SEE EXAMPLE ABOVE.
    Does that help you to understand WHY the Moderators get slightly POed when a thread starts to go Off Topic?

    Because now it's YOUR thread & the thread topic is:

    "OPEN CARRY VS CONCEALED CARRY"

    Your thread topic is NOT Leather VS Kydex for Open & Concealed Carry & your thread is not about which Brommeland holster is best for concealed carry or open carry.

    Your particular thread is about the merits of open carry as VS concealed carry and/or the disadvantages of one carry mode over the other.

    If a member wants to open a new talk thread on Kydex VS Leather for Open Carry then that would be a valid separate topic.

    That is why we warn folks to keep the thread ON Topic.

    Also Please Note: By you making me (and other forum members) read your initial sarcastic comments about the forum moderators...the natural inclination is for members to comment on those "off color" remarks & so you have thrown your own thread OFF TOPIC in the very beginning of your thread post.

    I hope that you understand things a tiny bit better now.
    If not then next time you check out CombatCarry it will be in your virtual rear view mirror while you're headed in the opposite direction.

    Use Your Private Mail Feature if you have a gripe about the way this forum is being run & any moderator will be happy to respond.
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I like the system of Federalism too. Dont' like it, move. That's what I did.

    I agree. Lots of IL tourists up here. Nothing like seeing the looks on their faces when someone walks by open carrying.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    Maybe we are asking the wrong question

    The open vs concealed debate will rage on. I personally agree that concealed is tactically better. But when I open carry, it is for an entirely different reason. The article below will explain much better than I could.

    A while back John Pierce (one of the founders of opencarry.com) wrote an article for VCDL's Defender whereby he responded to another article where the author talked about how open carry was not only tactically inferior but somehow irresponsible.

    I asked John if he minded me printing out copies to give to friends. His response was "Sure. Whatever you would like. I wrote the article to forward the cause of open carry and any way that it can be used to do that is fine with me." So here is his article:

    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Over the last several issues, the Defender has been the forum for a heated debate between those who advocate open carry and those who consider it dangerous and irresponsible. In my opinion, the origin of the debate lies in a basic misunderstanding of the true benefits of open carry, and I plan on joining the debate in the finest tradition of politicians everywhere: I will share my opinion and then declare it gospel.

    "Right Answer ... Wrong Question"
    The argument thus far has largely revolved around the tactical aspects of open carry vs. concealed carry. If this were the actual argument, then those of us who are proponents of open carry would lose quite handily. However, this is not the actual argument. The reason that it has appeared to be so is that Mr.'s Mulvena and O'Connor both made passing remarks in their articles about tactical issues and opened the door to Mr. Kelly's well-written and thorough rebuttal.

    Now would be a good time for me to go on record as saying that there is very little to disagree with in Mr. Kelly's article. His level of training and dedication to concealed carry issues give him an enviable and unique insight and he has the ability to present what he knows concisely and convincingly. Having said that, the question he was answering was not the question we should be asking. He was answering the question "Is open carry more or less tactically defensible than concealed carry?" I will join with Mr. Kelly in answering that question by saying "less". Suffice it to say that if your primary concern is tactical superiority, then you should carry concealed.

    "The Right Question"
    The question that we, as VCDL members and pro-gun activists, should be asking is "What are the benefits to the gun-rights movement of my carrying openly?" Mr. Kelly stated the problem quite eloquently in his article; "I know bankers, attorneys, businessmen, reporters, and clergymen who consider a sidearm as much a part of their daily apparel as their wallet. But to non-gun-owners, it seems a somehow unwholesome practice, associated with criminals and paranoiacs. To them, a man who carries a gun for no immediate reason is strange. They regard such a person as they would one who talked to himself."

    The reason for this is readily apparent. We are bombarded, almost daily, by a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle antigun media messages. It is amazing how effective this bombardment is, even for those of us with deeply held pro-gun beliefs. It is a dangerous mistake to assume that societal influences do not make an impact. They do! Mr. Kelly is a prime example of the fact that even we can be influenced to treat firearms as something "somehow unwholesome."

    At the risk of sounding like a sociology professor, what we are dealing with is a general populace that has had their perceptions about firearms turned into prejudices by societal pressures. Most people are not anti-gun in the traditional sense of the word, but they can be counted upon to swallow whatever drivel is presented by the true anti-gun movement. Make no mistake about it; if we do nothing to counter these negative stereotypes about gun owners, then our rights will be slowly taken away. Open carry is a very easy way to begin to counter these stereotypes. To put it simply, open carry forces those you meet, be they friends, relatives or neighbors, to reconcile their preconceived notions and prejudices regarding firearms with the fact that you are exercising this right in a safe and responsible manner.

    Prejudice thrives on ignorance. By openly carrying, we are showing the public what gun owners are really like. More importantly, we are showing them who we are. I cannot tell you the number of times that I have heard people say that they do not know any gun owners. They do, of course, but they are not aware that they do. This allows them to buy into the idea that gun owners are different; and people fear and distrust that which is different. Seeing you or I openly carrying a firearm forces them to confront the object of their prejudice.

    "Conclusion"
    We are not just a collection of people who are interested solely in self-defense and personal protection tactics. We are also political activists! The anti's understand this and factor it into all of their public contact, but often we do not.

    You and I are the spokesmen for responsible gun ownership and use in our communities. Charleton Heston and Sarah Brady are, at best, distant figures to John and Jane Citizen, but you and I are their relatives, friends, neighbors and fellow travelers.

    Open carry is our chance to show our friends and neighbors that we are normal people. We have families, homes, children and bills just like they do. We have simply chosen to exercise our right of self-defense and I, for one, find this very wholesome.

    Last edited on Sat May 20th, 2006 07:58 am by jpierce

  5. #35
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    Another thread already going on this subject

    I would suggest you go to this thread and join the discussion.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

  6. #36
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    I do not feel the need to enter the fray concerning concealed vs. open carry, especially since the first sentence of the CombatCarry.com introduction states: "Our goal at CombatCarry.com is to be a resource for those who have made the decision to legally obtain a concealed carry permit (CCW) or otherwise have an interest in CCW." To me that sort of limits our discussion. If you want to discuss concealed vs. open it should be done in the Off Topics and Humor Discussion forum.

    I do want express come concern about the article by John Pierce posted by PaulG. In the section called "The Right Question" Mr. Pierce makes several statements that appear to me to be vague generalizations that have no real facts to back them up. In the second paragraph Mr. Pierce makes the following statement in response to a quote from Mr. Kelly's article: "The reason for this is readily apparent. We are bombarded, almost daily, by a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle antigun media messages." This is a blanket statement that with only a little analysis falls completely apart. Mr. Pierce had just placed the blame for all non-gun-owners' beliefs that carrying firearms is unwholesome and associated with criminals and paranoiacs. While it may be true that a great many non-gun-owners' beliefs stem from antigun media messages there are, I'm sure, whose beliefs come from other sources; for example: experience, family heritage, or friends. I'm sure that the media wishes they were as powerful as Mr. Pierce apparently believes them to be. The cost of advertising would go through the roof. There is just one sentence intervening between Mr. Pierce's pronouncement that the media is the whole cause and this sentence: "It is a dangerous mistake to assume that societal influences do not make an impact." Now Mr. Pierce disagrees with his own position. He cannot have it both ways. It cannot be all the media and partly societal influences. In our world the following rule of logic still applies - An object cannot be both A and Non-A at the same time.

    In his third paragraph Mr. Pierce continues his societal influence theme further distancing himself from his own argument of the earlier paragraph. Later in the third paragraph Mr. Pierce makes the following observation: "Make no mistake about it; if we do nothing to counter these negative stereotypes about gun owners, then our rights will be slowly taken away. Open carry is a very easy way to begin to counter these stereotypes. To put it simply, open carry forces those you meet, be they friends, relatives or neighbors, to reconcile their preconceived notions and prejudices regarding firearms with the fact that you are exercising this right in a safe and responsible manner."

    My concern is with the following statement: "To put it simply, open carry forces those you meet, be they friends, relatives or neighbors, to reconcile their preconceived notions and prejudices regarding firearms with the fact that you are exercising this right in a safe and responsible manner." My problem is the group left out of the list used by Mr. Pierce. He says that "open carry forces those you meet, be they friends, relatives or neighbors, to reconcile . . ." What does it do to the other people you meet - strangers? While open carry may force "friends, relatives or neighbors," to come to the conclusion that "you are exercising this right in a safe and responsible manner" it does not necessarily force stranger to come to the same conclusion. The strangers have no basis upon which to reach that conclusion. If they see someone open carrying for five minutes how does this force them to conclude that the carrier is exercising his right in a safe and responsible manner. The stranger does not know the carrier, his reputation, nor his prior actions and therefore has no way to evaluate what might be his future actions. At the very best the stranger can conclude that the carrier has exercised his right in a safe and responsible manner for the five minutes that he has been under the observation of the stranger and is likely to continue in that manner for some seconds after he is no longer being observed by the stranger. Even the likely to continue part is stretching the conclusion based on the evidence of the five minute observation.

    I have another problem with the idea that anything can force someone to change his or her opinion. Having lived for over 58 years among human beings I can tell you that it ain't necessarily so. I firmly believe that many antigun people already know and are convinced that gun ownership and carry does not somehow make one criminal nor paranoiac. Do I have any evidence for this belief? Yes, I do. The evidence I have is the behavior of antigun people. We often read of how a Sarah Brady buys her son a rifle, or how some other antigun activist has a firearm. For these people who know the truth, the truth is not what the antigun program is about. For them it is about power. Also as a result of living with humans I am convinced that for a large number of people the following is true of their mindset: Don't confuse me with the facts my mind is made up. The are the people who when faced with an overwhelming amount of irrefutable evidence contrary to their position hold even stronger to their position. These are the people for whom the very fact that you are trying to convince them other wise confirms their prejudices. We all know them and for the most part they are harmless. They are the ones that in spite of the fact that the email that says that for the next 60 days Bill Gates is going to be paying $50 to everyone who forwards this email is dated January 15, 2006 and today is June 30, 2006 (well over 60 days past the original date) insist on forwarding this piece of electronic trash to 25 other people. And who then anxiously watch their mailbox for the check from Bill Gates even though you tell them that there is no way to track emails and show them on Snopes.com that the hoax email has been around in 1997 and is confirmed by both Bill Gates and Microsoft to be phony.

    Mr. Pierce presented an unemotional case for his position, but it matters not how well the case is presented if the case is full of holes. Again, I am not entering the debate about open and concealed carry. I am merely shining the like of logic and common sense upon some of the arguments used by one person to defend his position.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  7. #37
    Member Array lostone1413's Avatar
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    Here in Arizona I carry both ways. AZ being an open carry state to along with CCW I feel it is best to carry both ways at different times. I feel like that because of all the people who come to AZ from anti-gun states. To name a few. Ca. Illinois, and just about all the Northeast part of the country. When I open carry in towns like Sedona or Prescott it is way of saying that you are in my state i'm not in your state. You don't like being able to carry get the H**L out of my state. But then again when me and the wife go out to say eat I will almost always CCW.
    Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.
    John F. Kennedy

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array blueyedevil's Avatar
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    First I have CC'd for 3 years, my OC experience consists of duty carry in the military and occasionaly open carrying while fishing or hunting.

    I live in a state which both are legal (minus Denver), But I choose to CC because 90% of the time OC is just not practical for me. I live in a fairly good sized city (for Colorado) and I know that OC would end up causing hassles that can easily be avoided by concealing.

    If you live in an area and have a job where OC is not a problem, then I see none. I think the deterrent effect and speed of draw is offset by the lack of surprise and availability for a snatch. I think the cover garment is a non issue, because you will likely have to train to clear clothing with OC unless you tuck your shirt tight all the time. All in all I think they're equal modes of carry that should be chosen on a pragmatic basis for your particular situation.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array PaulG's Avatar
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    DR_CMG - I agree with you that we CANNOT change the rabid anti gunners and I don't attempt to try. They want your guns regardless of how you carry.

    What I think you are missing is that most people are not anti gun they are simply uninformed. Why do you think guns sales, as reported by the gun store owners, soar during such things as 9/11, Katrina, the DC Snipers? Its because when people are forced to think about it by such disasters, they realized that they alone are responsible for their safety.

    My experience (in Northern Virginia) is that when people see a polite, well dressed person carrying a gun, there is very little reaction. The person who panics and calls the cops is the exception.

    I agree with Mr. Pierce wholeheartedly. I have lived it for the past few years. I have NEVER had a negative reaction to my openly carried gun. The only LEO reaction I ever got was that one LEO couldn't understand why I carried a 1911 instead of a Sig.

    I have met many strangers over the past few years while open carrying. The result: mostly nothing. The comments I have gotten were polite. Most asked how they could get a permit to carry a gun and this led to a discussion of CCW and open carry laws......very positive. Education is a good thing.

    As I stated, I have seen the results. With all due respect, and this is not meant as a flame, I think you are reaching for the "holes in the argument" idea. I see none.

    I respect your opinions but will continue my activism in Virginia.

    How ever you choose to carry, I hope you stay safe.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulG
    DR_CMG - I agree with you that we CANNOT change the rabid anti gunners and I don't attempt to try. They want your guns regardless of how you carry.

    As I stated, I have seen the results. With all due respect, and this is not meant as a flame, I think you are reaching for the "holes in the argument" idea. I see none.

    I respect your opinions but will continue my activism in Virginia.
    Paul, thank you for your response. First, let me use an old Alabama phrase to explain my position. "I've got no dog in this fight." By that I mean it makes no difference to me. Alabama does not authorize open carry except on your own property so any argument pro or con here is moot.

    Now concerning the statement that you have had no negative reaction from strangers. This type of argument (argument used in the classic sense that each side of a position presents its position in the form of arguments, not in the modern sense of a loud disagreement) is what is called anecdotal meaning: Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis. It is a form of evidence but presents only a small portion of the total picture. For example we have another thread in this same forum which is about a member being asked to leave a bank. The key to his being asked was that he was carrying openly. http://www.combatcarry.com/vbulletin...ad.php?t=11218

    Now as to my statements about Mr. Pierce's articles. You think I am reaching for holes in his arguments. I am really just exposing hole in his logic. Have spent entirely too much time in my life listening to or reading someone's position only to have someone else come along and expose the logical fallacies in the first persons arguments I decided to equip myself to see the flaws. So I did a rather careful study of logic. It is almost a lost art in America. Most defenses whether written or oral, most political campaign speeches, and most other statements where someone is trying to prove or disprove something contain some logical fallacies. The fact that they contain these does not necessarily indicate that he case being made is false. It does indicate that some of the evidence being produced is not germane to the question.

    I thought Mr. Pierce presented his case well, but in at least two places he used argument that did not meet the judgment of logic. The first was a statement about the cause of a particular position being held. Mr. Pierce made an unsubstantiated and unsubstantiatable statement about the cause. And while I agree that part of the cause of the problem is the media, it is obvious to all concerned including Mr. Pierce that it is not the only cause. The fact that the statement is obviously incorrect does not negate the fact that the media plays an influential part in the general public's view of firearms. Neither does it negate Mr. Pierce's position.

    The same is true of the Mr. Pierce's statement about forcing people to see a certain way. The fact that not everyone will see the way he wants them to does not mean that the activity is useless. It simply means that providing simple solutions for complex problems does not always result in solving the problem.

    You have admitted that your experience is only valid in the part of Northern Virginia that you have visited and lived in, yet you say "What I think you are missing is that most people are not anti gun they are simply uninformed." Have you done a survey of all the people, or one of most the people, or even a survey of a statistical average? If not your statement about most people simply being uninformed is without force since you have no data except your opinion to back it up. This is the kind of thing that I was stressing. Make statements that you can back up, make statements that are logically correct and you will have a real basis for you position. You can also reach some of those uninformed people by simply destroying the position of the opposition. You can use the logical fallacies of the oppositions statements against them. You may have to first teach your audience to understand what the fallacy is, but if you succeed in that then your argument without fallacy against the opposition's argument with fallacy will at least get a hearing.

    But being right is not always the winning position and that is because at heart many people are not logical. But sometimes you find some who are willing to listen. It is these people whom you must convince because as we agreed some people cannot be convinced no matter what.

    I appreciate your position and I wish you well in your efforts. Again I take no position in the discussion because I live in Alabama and I spend about 98% of my time in Alabama so the laws of Alabama are all I can realistically deal with.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array DMan's Avatar
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    First carried concealed in 1992 in WA state. Spent a couple of years in a state where anyform of carry was not allowed. But am now in New Hampshire where both concealed and open are allowed. I have done both, but I prefer concealed, not because of the speed of the draw, but due to my job. I also prefer to get used to ONE style of draw, consistency is the key. Since I must carry concealed due to work, I carry concealed all the time. Muscle memory is very important to being able to do something without thinking.

    I remember witnessing a friend in a shooting competition. He shot revolvers, and at the end of his speed shooting run, he had his pockets full of empty brass, when he practiced, he saved his brass, in competition he followed the same process, he came in 3rd btw. It was from watching him, and talking to others that I decided I would practice one draw, and practice it enough to be able to do it without thinking.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    I've open carried in AZ and it is a breath of fresh air. Rode Bike, ran around in the Desert, Carried open in Prescott, and Phoenix, no one takes notice, that is sooooo cooool!!!
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  13. #43
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    I carry concealed because I want to. Ohio says it's open carry but they can't get car carry right so why chance it. Do what the law allows I personally feel like if I were to OC that I give away the element of surprise.
    It comes a time in your life when you run across someone you should have never @#$$% with. Allow me to introduce myself!

  14. #44
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    How many of us are truly capable of securing an open carry sidearm against a surprise assault in crowded environment by a physically capable combatant? Situational awareness is one thing but in the end, it all boils down to one person's physical and mental toughness against another's.

    It takes a great deal of training and physical conditioning to win this type of battle. There are many BG's who are either self or institutionally trained (gangs, prison, etc) and practice independent motion and close quarter fighting techniques. Your open carry sidearm could quickly become the BG's.

    It's naive to feel secure with open carry even when you are adequately trained and practice proven weapon retention techniques. At a minimum, concealed carry keeps the BG's guessing.

  15. #45
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    Hello from Florida.
    Here in Florida there is no open carry except for LEO's, Security and when in your home or business. That said I have carred for 20+ years with and without a permit. If allowed I would carry in the open because if everyone that carried carried in the open there would be less suprises. I would rather look around a room and see 20 weapons than to look around and not see those weapons and have to quess at my safety level. Here in Florida the state has made the decision for me and I respect it. You know just like I respect the owners of this board and follow the rules they put in place to keep this the nice place it is.
    Philip L. McCleary
    Security via CCW
    and a lot of practice
    Dispatchers have the best jobs
    we tell the police where to go and they have
    to do it. Policy manual says so.

    de N4LNE

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