BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement - Page 2

BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement

This is a discussion on BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 2edgesword . I just find it difficult to rationally justify doling out fundamental Constitutional rights based on arbitrary age requirements. That's the ...

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Thread: BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    . I just find it difficult to rationally justify doling out fundamental Constitutional rights based on arbitrary age requirements.
    That's the thing. Rights aren't doled out. They are inherent to every adult citizen. The problem is, the gov't can't decide what constitutes an adult.

    So they're resorted to, "For this, you're an adult at 18. For that, you're an adult at 21."

    Where does it stop?


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xader View Post

    So they're resorted to, "For this, you're an adult at 18. For that, you're an adult at 21."

    Where does it stop?
    Well, just for the record, the highest age requirement is 35, for eligibility to be prez. It is 30, for eligibility to be a Senator. It is 25 to be seated in The House. It used to be 21 to vote. That all seems like quite a reasonable progression. Twenty one was the age of majority for almost all of our history, and it was lowered for all the wrong reasons; mostly for the convenience of college and university administrators who didn't want the legal problems of the 'in loco parentis" role.

    The military draft was front and center in the public eye, but it wasn't the driver. Think about it. We had military conscription of young men for the Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, and times in between. The "old enough to fight old enough to vote" deal never gained much traction until people began going to colleges and universities as a matter of course instead of as the exception. That's when the pressure from behind the scenes got turned up.

  3. #18
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    This has always been my only question or concern about the 2nd. amendment. There is no age stated so who is to say. Aren't we de-facto modifying the 2nd. by putting any kind of a age limit on it?

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    Hopyard, u seem to forget, those age limits were defined in the constitution. They were not determined later. And SigP250, please do not generalize, there are many 18-21 year olds with the funds to afford great quality handguns. Does it really matter if the 18 year old has a High Point or a Glock if their weapon is well maintained and they know how to use it? Besides, just because they cannot afford a decent gun, does not mean they did not inherit a great gun that they need ammo for, but because of the way the law is, cannot buy it to become proficient so they have a gun they are not able to use well. Personally, I believe that if I can fight and die at 18, i should be able to order a beer with my steak or have my gun on my hip. Not at the same time, but you know what I mean. Thank God i live in a state that recognizes this and I was able to get a permit. My question is, would I be able to carry on a Indiana permit in a recipricol state that issues permits at 21?
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  5. #20
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    INccwchris-
    Hopyard, u seem to forget, those age limits were defined in the constitution. They were not determined later.

    Chapter and verse please

    My question is, would I be able to carry on a Indiana permit in a recipricol state that issues permits at 21?

    In Missouri with an issue age of 23; the answer is YES

  6. #21
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    Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
    Section 2 - The House

    \

    No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.



    Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
    Section 3 - The Senate

    No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.
    .


    article 2
    section 1

    No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Hopyard, u seem to forget, those age limits were defined in the constitution.
    No. Although I didn't specifically state the source for the ages I provided it should be rather obvious that these are set in our constitution.

    I was responding to the notion that the various age requirements are arbitrary. They are not. They are based on a combination of constitution and common law, and common sense.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
    Section 2 - The House

    \

    No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen.



    Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
    Section 3 - The Senate

    No person shall be a Senator who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.
    .


    article 2
    section 1

    No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

    That has to do with holding FEDERAL office (18 year olds have been elected mayors), it has as much to do with exercising rights under the second amendment, or any other constitutional right, as the the the old Soviet Constitution.

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    The Declaration of Independence is one of the founding documents of our country. It is here that we learn that our rights are unalienable and endowed by our creator. Neither here nor in the Constitution/BOR are ages set at which our unalienable rights inure. I do not subscribe to the theory that is being tossed around in this thread and elsewhere that our rights inure at some arbitrary age. This logic would prevent young people from: speaking freely, exercising religious freedom, peaceable assembling, petitioning their government, and, yes, exercising 2A rights among others. The further we get from the clear language of our founding documents, the more difficulties we interject into interpreting them. If we applied a normal hermeneutic, we would determine the intent of the authors and apply that intent. We have plenty of contemporaneous documents to tell us the intent of the founding fathers, but we work hard to obfuscate the clear intent - this keeps lawyers busy and well paid - but deprives normal citizens of their God-given rights.
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    If I were King the age for handguns, drinking, and driving would be at least 25...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Smith View Post
    If I were King the age for handguns, drinking, and driving would be at least 25...
    If I were King, we would do lots of things differently. It is probably good for the country that neither of us are King. If we were, that would obviate the Constitution.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Smith View Post
    If I were King the age for handguns, drinking, and driving would be at least 25...
    I also assume then that 25 would be the minimum age for the military, for voting (well, I guess that would be irrelevant in the kingdom), for porn, and cigarettes as well?

  13. #28
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    Some seem skeptical that this will succeed. Don't know much about it, but I think there is a good chance. Anyone up for a friendly wager? Loser displays winner's choice of avatar for a week?
    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    The Declaration of Independence is one of the founding documents of our country. It is here that we learn that our rights are unalienable and endowed by our creator. Neither here nor in the Constitution/BOR are ages set at which our unalienable rights inure. I do not subscribe to the theory that is being tossed around in this thread and elsewhere that our rights inure at some arbitrary age. This logic would prevent young people from: speaking freely, exercising religious freedom, peaceable assembling, petitioning their government, and, yes, exercising 2A rights among others. The further we get from the clear language of our founding documents, the more difficulties we interject into interpreting them. If we applied a normal hermeneutic, we would determine the intent of the authors and apply that intent. We have plenty of contemporaneous documents to tell us the intent of the founding fathers, but we work hard to obfuscate the clear intent - this keeps lawyers busy and well paid - but deprives normal citizens of their God-given rights.
    While in theory it is nice to say that the rights inure without regard to age, that really isn't how it works. There is no way we would allow 10 year olds to carry guns on the basis of the argument that it is their fundamental right. In fact, our founders relied on the English common law to determine 21 as the age of majority. It isn't specified in constitution I don't think, but that was the practice of the day. Prior to (especially back then), you belonged to parents who called the shots, and your rights were limited by parental control; as they are today till you are 18 or emancipated, or they are extended by legislation or the actions of some court somewhere.

    I think we know very well that the founders took it as given that the age of majority was 21. I'm not in the mood to research it but it should be fairly easy to determine what various state laws used as the age of majority at the time our constitution was ratified.

    Now, what would be interesting would be to determine if any of the states --early on-- tied the carrying of firearms to the age of majority or not.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    your rights were limited by parental control
    Exactly. You have rights the state did not attenuate them, your parents regulated them. There is a huge and fundamental difference here. Back in the day it was not unusual for Jr, at 10, 12 or whatever age dad thought best, to harvest meat for dinner with a gun while dad was working the farm or shop or whatever. When I was a kid, it was not unusual for kids to go hunting after school for whatever was in season. Generally, this was not with a high powered rifle, but a 22 or 12 ga were not out of the question. The founding fathers felt that kids have rights, but that the parents regulate their exercise, not the state.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

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