BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement - Page 3

BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement

This is a discussion on BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by ksholder Exactly. You have rights the state did not attenuate them, your parents regulated them. There is a huge and fundamental difference ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Exactly. You have rights the state did not attenuate them, your parents regulated them. There is a huge and fundamental difference here. Back in the day it was not unusual for Jr, at 10, 12 or whatever age dad thought best, to harvest meat for dinner with a gun while dad was working the farm or shop or whatever. When I was a kid, it was not unusual for kids to go hunting after school for whatever was in season. Generally, this was not with a high powered rifle, but a 22 or 12 ga were not out of the question. The founding fathers felt that kids have rights, but that the parents regulate their exercise, not the state.
    Nice try, but then they wouldn't have established in various ways an age of majority. They would have just said, heck, we'll leave it up to the parents.

    Are you seriously arguing that government should not be able to prohibit various activities of a 10 year old?

    Here's one non-gun related example. We have a youth curfew in our town.
    Literally interpreted that violates all manner of rights, particularly freedom of assembly, but these curfews are fully lawful and constitutional as they apply to people who have not reached the age of majority, however that is set.

    Now, does anyone know if any of the newly formed states and respective municipalities enacted laws establishing the age at which people were allowed to carry, perhaps within municipal boundaries? It would be really helpful to know if 1890s Johnny the 16 y.o. could take his guns to town notwithstanding his momma's admonition, "don't take your guns to town son, leave your guns at home son, don't take your guns to town." (Words from a popular "western" ballad circa 1960.)


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Nice try, but then they wouldn't have established in various ways an age of majority. They would have just said, heck, we'll leave it up to the parents.

    Are you seriously arguing that government should not be able to prohibit various activities of a 10 year old?

    Here's one non-gun related example. We have a youth curfew in our town.
    Literally interpreted that violates all manner of rights, particularly freedom of assembly, but these curfews are fully lawful and constitutional as they apply to people who have not reached the age of majority, however that is set.

    Now, does anyone know if any of the newly formed states and respective municipalities enacted laws establishing the age at which people were allowed to carry, perhaps within municipal boundaries? It would be really helpful to know if 1890s Johnny the 16 y.o. could take his guns to town notwithstanding his momma's admonition, "don't take your guns to town son, leave your guns at home son, don't take your guns to town." (Words from a popular "western" ballad circa 1960.)
    Hop, I have done a lot of google-fu on this since I've had my original concerns on this for sometime. All I've been able to come up with is the "age of majority" as it pertains to laws, no mention of it in regards to rights.

    My real thinking on this is that I'm missing something. If not it would seem to be a angle that anti's would use.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Are you seriously arguing that government should not be able to prohibit various activities of a 10 year old? Here's one non-gun related example. We have a youth curfew in our town.
    Literally interpreted that violates all manner of rights, particularly freedom of assembly, but these curfews are fully lawful and constitutional as they apply to people who have not reached the age of majority, however that is set.
    No. All manner of laws can and are made subject to all kinds of limitations and restrictions. What I am saying is that I see nowhere in the Constitution or the other founding documents where unalienable rights endowed by our creator are subject to government restrictions. If the government can regulate unalienable rights then they are not unalienable.

    As to curfews, as you point out yourself, they are an unconstitutional restriction on free assembly.
    Last edited by ksholder; December 7th, 2010 at 06:41 AM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Now, does anyone know if any of the newly formed states and respective municipalities enacted laws establishing the age at which people were allowed to carry, perhaps within municipal boundaries? It would be really helpful to know if 1890s Johnny the 16 y.o. could take his guns to town notwithstanding his momma's admonition, "don't take your guns to town son, leave your guns at home son, don't take your guns to town." (Words from a popular "western" ballad circa 1960.)
    IIRC, Illinois would be a "newly formed state" as it was not in the original 13. I am not sure about it's 19th century laws, but we have seen plenty of evidence that they did, in fact, offer up 20th & 21st century gun laws that regulate carry within municipal boundaries. Granted, they are not strictly age related, but neither are they Constitutional per SCOTUS.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    the 18-21 conflict is an amazing one.... I haven't made up my mind on it yet, and I'm not just talking 'guns', but generally with several things.

    IF you can vote and be in the military operating a weapon system and fighting in a war c.... then why not drink , buy cigarettes or buy a handgun. Or, make it all 21. There seems to be a real dichotomony in the 18 -21 debate.
    +2
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Hop, I have done a lot of google-fu on this since I've had my original concerns on this for sometime. All I've been able to come up with is the "age of majority" as it pertains to laws, no mention of it in regards to rights.
    Perhaps that is an artificial distinction. If a restriction applies by law and is not overturned by judges it is by definition, constitutional. We can scream and shout all we want when this happens with something we particularly care about, but it is not possible to separate law from constitution. In the end one is an extension of the other.

    Anyway, what we need to know to address this issue is what the practice was at or near the founding. Mostly, it was extension of English Common Law.

    Anyway, like it or not our legislatures have been legislating all manner of stuff on an age related basis. It isn't just gun possession. It isn't just alcohol, it isn't just tobacco, or driving. It includes very fundamental stuff such as marriage. Marriage is certainly a fundamental right (even if it isn't specified and even though earlier laws often restricted it in unacceptable ways). The states have set the age all over the place from 14 on up. I think few would argue that 2 12 year olds have a constitutional right to marry even with their parent's permission. On the other side, few would argue that you could constitutionally prohibit marriage to folks who have reached the age of majority, however set.

    As always, we live in a practical world and Constitution gets interpreted and applied in practical terms.

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