BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement

BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement

This is a discussion on BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; NRA members probably already know about this, but for those who hadn't heard: Article here NRA is supporting this suit filed against the BATFE to ...

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Thread: BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement

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    Member Array Random's Avatar
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    BATFE sued over 21-year age requirement

    NRA members probably already know about this, but for those who hadn't heard:

    Article here

    NRA is supporting this suit filed against the BATFE to eliminate the law against adults 18-21 purchasing handguns.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Random View Post
    NRA members probably already know about this, but for those who hadn't heard:

    Article here

    NRA is supporting this suit filed against the BATFE to eliminate the law against adults 18-21 purchasing handguns.
    Without commenting on which way I'd like to see this go, I think it is going to go nowhere. There are a wide array of goods which have varying age limits on them for possession or purchase; tobacco and alcohol. There is almost certainly some case law supporting the right of states to impose these age-dependent conditions. IT may go differently because 2A is a specific right given in the BOR, but our judges have never been too terribly deterred by the BOR when they wanted to reach what they considered a practical solution to a practical problem.

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Without commenting on which way I'd like to see this go, I think it is going to go nowhere. There are a wide array of goods which have varying age limits on them for possession or purchase; tobacco and alcohol. There is almost certainly some case law supporting the right of states to impose these age-dependent conditions. IT may go differently because 2A is a specific right given in the BOR, but our judges have never been too terribly deterred by the BOR when they wanted to reach what they considered a practical solution to a practical problem.

    Yes, but in some states you can possess and purchase a handgun privately in the 18-20 age, but not from an FFL until 21. It's not like you can buy alcohol or cigarettes legally from your neighbor but not the store down the road. I think the double standard may be the issue here.
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    the 18-21 conflict is an amazing one.... I haven't made up my mind on it yet, and I'm not just talking 'guns', but generally with several things.

    IF you can vote and be in the military operating a weapon system and fighting in a war c.... then why not drink , buy cigarettes or buy a handgun. Or, make it all 21. There seems to be a real dichotomony in the 18 -21 debate.
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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    IF you can vote and be in the military operating a weapon system and fighting in a war c.... then why not drink , buy cigarettes or buy a handgun. Or, make it all 21. There seems to be a real dichotomony in the 18 -21 debate.
    I agree with the part in bold.

    Biker

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    An adult is an adult. It's BS to say that someone is only PARTLY adult. Let's make it consistent across the board.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Random View Post
    An adult is an adult. It's BS to say that someone is only PARTLY adult. Let's make it consistent across the board.
    ^THIS

    Especially in regards to our constitutional rights...

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    You gotta love it. You can fight and die for you country at 18 years of age. But you cant have a beer or use your constitunal rights until thay say so. The law should be 18 and quit the double standards.

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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terror View Post
    You gotta love it. You can fight and die for you country at 18 years of age. But you cant have a beer or use your constitunal rights until thay say so. The law should be 18 and quit the double standards.
    Fight and die after at least 8 weeks of intense training and discipline where everything that you were is stripped away to what the military wants.

    I'd be fine with a military service exemption for under 21, but your average high school grad or dropout....Lot of learning about life and responsibility to do yet. I know, rights are rights and there should not be any caveats and addendums to them.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    One thing I have noticed is that in other parts of the world, where drinking is legal at 18 y/o, that the 18 y/o I've known have been more mature for the most part.

    That is not to say that 18 y/o that are legal to drink don't ever do stupid stuff, they do. It's just that it's been my personal observation that most people will rise to the standards you set, and no higher. If we made the drinking age twenty-five then we'd have the twenty-five year olds acting like the twenty-one year olds do now.

    While I am personally in favor of not declaring someone an adult until they are at least twenty-five I realize that this is unrealistic. I do think it should be "all or none" with regards to rights, but with a caveat. The caveat being that those rights come with responsibilities. The responsibility to act like an adult and face adult consequences.

    Biker

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    As a dealer, I would like to see the law changed. If a person wants a handgun bad enough, he/she will find a way to do it. I would much rather see them buying a gun from me or another dealer than buying junk on the street.

    This suit does not address the fact that persons under 21 cannot buy ammunition from a dealer either. The only exception is interchangeable ammunition, primarily .22.
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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    One thing I have noticed is that in other parts of the world, where drinking is legal at 18 y/o, that the 18 y/o I've known have been more mature for the most part.

    That is not to say that 18 y/o that are legal to drink don't ever do stupid stuff, they do. It's just that it's been my personal observation that most people will rise to the standards you set, and no higher. If we made the drinking age twenty-five then we'd have the twenty-five year olds acting like the twenty-one year olds do now.

    While I am personally in favor of not declaring someone an adult until they are at least twenty-five I realize that this is unrealistic. I do think it should be "all or none" with regards to rights, but with a caveat. The caveat being that those rights come with responsibilities. The responsibility to act like an adult and face adult consequences.

    Biker
    And at the same time we apply "adult" standards to 14 year olds who commit heinous crimes, (as we should). Far from being an adult, barely into puberty. \

    This is all going to boil down to parenting [or the lack of] and the apparent tendency that the majority of Americans seem to insist that the Government raise their children for them, and blame everyone but the parents when the offspring run afoul.

    Even in the '40s we had the same standards (no drinking until 21, still fight and die @ 18 or younger) and I believe this country was in a heck of a lot better shape morally and ethically (barring racial and gender issues) that it is now. At least back then kids were being raised by their parents and taught responsibility & the difference between right and wrong, and discipline assuredly started at home.

    Maybe had this argument (thread topic) been brought up then we would not be pushing it now.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    As a dealer, I would like to see the law changed. If a person wants a handgun bad enough, he/she will find a way to do it. I would much rather see them buying a gun from me or another dealer than buying junk on the street.

    This suit does not address the fact that persons under 21 cannot buy ammunition from a dealer either. The only exception is interchangeable ammunition, primarily .22.
    Most people will see you as bias, as you stand to make a profit by this. You would be hard put to prove that a person in that age range gaining possession of a handgun either through a FFL dealer or off the street will be mature enough to fully grasp the responsibilities that go with it, or the consequences of their actions.

    It took me until I was 32 to stop looking back at my previous year (birthdays) and saying to myself "Gods I was an idiot", thinking that I was at that final level of responsibility and maturity insofar as my decisions and actions during the previous 365 days.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Most people will see you as bias, as you stand to make a profit by this. You would be hard put to prove that a person in that age range gaining possession of a handgun either through a FFL dealer or off the street will be mature enough to fully grasp the responsibilities that go with it, or the consequences of their actions.

    It took me until I was 32 to stop looking back at my previous year (birthdays) and saying to myself "Gods I was an idiot", thinking that I was at that final level of responsibility and maturity insofar as my decisions and actions during the previous 365 days.
    First there is not a snowballs chance in hell that this suit will go anywhere. It is not simply a matter of changing a regulation.

    One reason is that there are too many states that accept a carry permit in lieu of an NICS background check. Those states would be pressured to lower the age to acquire a permit. States that do not allow a carry permit to be used to fore-go a background check would be in a quandary over reciprocity with other states they now have agreements with. Their laws would now not be substantially equivalent. That is just one of several reason why I don't see any BATFE regulation changes or changes at the State level in the immediate future.

    Dealers could see a slight gain in handgun sales but it would be very small. Most persons 19-21 years of age do not have the funds to purchase anything but used or low quality handguns. The fact is, any gain in handgun sales would be offset by reduced sales of AR- AK- and other rifles and shotguns that are legal for a person 18 or older to purchase from an FFL.
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    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Having raised four kids and with fourteen grandkids I'm well aware of the concerns about 18 year olds when it come to guns, alcohol, cars, etc. The 18 year olds and younger that really want a handgun somehow find a way to get one. Nothing miraculous happens on your 21st birthday that changes your attitude and sense of responsibility.

    The voting age was lower in 1971 from 21 to 18 in part because the argument was made that if you could draft an 18 year, hand him a rifle and ship him to Southeast Asia to fight he should have the right to vote. Should he not also have the ability to exercise his 2nd Amendment rights here at home>

    NY allows an individual under 21 to receive a license if they have been honorably discharged from military service (enter at 17 and serve two years). I just find it difficult to rationally justify doling out fundamental Constitutional rights based on arbitrary age requirements.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

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