Constitution gets congressional reading!

This is a discussion on Constitution gets congressional reading! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Hopyard OK, we'll disenfranchise the folks who work for ethanol producers? The industry wouldn't exist without subsidies. Industries that should not exist ...

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Thread: Constitution gets congressional reading!

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    OK, we'll disenfranchise the folks who work for ethanol producers? The industry wouldn't exist without subsidies.
    Industries that should not exist are a problem with government policy. We should fix that, but people who make an honest living in the industry and pay the taxes get to vote in my plan.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You are talking about wanting to take the vote from poor people solely because they are poor. The strategy been tried before in the form of a poll tax and found wanting.
    Nope, being poor has nothing to do with a decision to be on the dole. I know honest poor people who work hard, get paid little and live on it. While they may not pay taxes, because they make too little, they are not net receivers from the government - they get to vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    As for the other "originalist' ideals you speak of, how about we go back to having senators elected by legislatures or appointed by governors as originally intended; I could get talked into that idea. Do you really want electors selected by legislators instead of by popular vote? Again, I could get talked into that idea, if only because what we are doing now ain't working well.
    I am all for repealing the 17th amendment. We find common ground. The 17th was the biggest damper on states rights that ever hit this country.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    That comment speaks to me of arrogance and elitism. That is exactly what I voted against. The idea that a congresscritter could know better than I what I need is insulting. - Biker
    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Reality is, that the arrogance of that comment displays an example of what is wrong with Washington. You have, according to your various post, a number of years in federal service. That undoubtably has left you with a touch of federal arrogance towards the people you serve. - Biker
    Biker - we are in agreement. When Congress cannot read and abide by the plain language of the Constitution they have sworn to uphold, protect and defend we have problems. When citizens feel the Constitution is so nuanced that they can neither read it nor understand it, there are other problems. Both of these issues fall under elitism and federal arrogance.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    I am all for repealing the 17th amendment. We find common ground. The 17th was the biggest damper on states rights that ever hit this country.
    For different reasons than the ones you have suggested, I could possibly get talked into the notion of repealing #17. But we'll continue to disagree on state's rights as a good goal. To the contrary, we need to remember these few words not in our constitution, "one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." That seems a pretty acceptable broad goal, and not one achievable with 50 different entities each going their own way. We already know where that gets us in terms of 2A, reciprocity, and gun possession "gotchyas" as we move about the entirety of the country.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think we were discussing whether or not Critters know what is in our constitution, not the makeup and economic heritage of the folks who serve in Congress.
    You miss the point. I'm not discussing the economics either. Self serving would be the appropriate box to check. It doesn't matter what congressman know about the constitution and the current administration has proven that. If they could recite it front to back, character gets in the way. If they weren't so self serving the government would be for the people. Instead it creates loons like Nancy Pelosi, Boxer and Wrangle who grow offended when the American people get restless when they have junk like health care shoved down their necks and then told to like it. Like BikerRN, I am offended you profess you think the government knows better than I do what the government needs to do for me because they are in a governmental role and I am not. They know the constitution but choose to ignor it. I don't need anything from the government. You have no way of knowing what I know about the constitution or what I need personally from the government. The elitist in Washington will never give me what I need. What need is for the government to get out of my life. I need smaller government and term limits so they can get out of my life. Please don't generalize. I'll give you the fact that I'm not a governmental scholar but I know what I need. I think its bull that I need to get a permit to protect myself and my family. Seams the government figured out how to make a buck off my second amendent rights. Thanks
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
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  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Biker - we are in agreement. When Congress cannot read and abide by the plain language of the Constitution they have sworn to uphold, protect and defend we have problems. When citizens feel the Constitution is so nuanced that they can neither read it nor understand it, there are other problems. Both of these issues fall under elitism and federal arrogance.
    Congress of course abides by the constitution, and when it does not it gets brought up short by the courts, as was intended.

    As for what you wrote which I put into bold, the premise is false. The document is nuanced and the case law is nuanced, and Congressional history and rules are complex and nuanced. We deceive ourselves in thinking there is anything at all simple about any of this stuff. Just a few moments ago a found a news article which just now I can't re-find, and it described how two different courts of appeal in different circuits split on an issue; the issue is unimportant for our discussion. The point is, if our constitution was as clear and free of nuance as so many like to pretend that it is, we wouldn't get these splits. It would be crystal clear in every instance what the meaning is and how each case must go.

  7. #51
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    the American people get restless when they have junk like health care shoved down their necks and then told to like it
    Looks like we have a Fox News viewer here - talking points from the dimbulb list. Let's see why.

    First, the PPACA is not insurance. It doesn't give anybody insurance. So nobody is getting "health care" from it.

    What it is, is a set of rules for the health insurance industry. You may have noticed that this week, Blue Shield of California just jacked rates up 59 percent. Is it reasonable to posit that their costs jumped that much in one year? I say no.

    But that's the kind of thing the health insurers have been doing. If you have any knowledge of health insurance at the technical level - like, say, maybe you've been the health plan administrator in your company or such - then you know what we've been dealing with. Annual hikes around 15 percent, year on year.

    So even as the average American's productivity has been increasing every year for the past couple of decades, why haven't our wages climbed in tandem (as they historically used to do)? One big reason is that the healthcare industry has been ratcheting up costs faster than the rise in GDP.

    A story out of California today showed a guy getting his policy raised from 230 or so to around 500 bucks a month. Even if he's gotten a raise in his salary lately, that just got snapped up by Blue Shield. He's treading water, and the insurer just got richer.

    He could forego insurance and go bare, or he could buy some pathetic junk insurance HSA that totally hoses him. The PPACA is an attempt to start fighting back and get these costs under control. By CBO estimates, it reduces costs by around 240 billion over the next 10 years - and maybe more.

    Then there's all the recission stuff, and lifetime caps on payouts, and pre-existing condition stuff, and pretty soon you have to stretch really hard to make any kind of case that we were better off in the "good old days" when insurers could totally rape you and laugh all the way to the bank. At least now they're getting some kind of restrictions, and obviously we need a lot more. A lot more. But this is a start.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  8. #52
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    Somewhere above this was posted "the American people get restless when they have junk like health care shoved down their necks and then told to like it."

    Though that comment is way OT, it needs a response:

    What the people won't take anymore is getting hosed by the health insurance system, such as it has existed in the past.
    The reforms just enacted are desperately needed, and I'll give you one simple and rather common example why.

    Take a couple, both 60. He, self-employed business man. Small bizz in construction. Wife held a job for 22 years with a large employer but was suddenly dismissed after all that time following a purchase of the company by a bigger fish.

    Suddenly, the family lost its health insurance. Oh, sure, the COBRA will be around for up to 2 years if they can afford the outlandish monthly premiums which exceed their mortgage payments. But, what will happen after, when they are NOT going to get insurance (under the pre-reform rules) in the private sector and will have to go without any insurance for several years till they are Medicare eligible, risking bankruptcy and ruin of their retirement should either of these older persons become ill.

    That circumstance, which is not at all uncommon, is one of the things the recent reform is attempting to fix.

    Do you think THAT good Chamber of Commerce member, businessman, Republican, gun owner, conservative, church going American, who has worked hard all his life is going to agree with you that the reform was "junk?" Do you think that person would agree that there should be repeal? Heck no. And I'm giving you a real life example.

    At least now once they go 6 months without insurance they will be able to get a policy. Before, they were just out of luck, waiting for a lifetime of hard work, investment and saving, to possibly be taken by fate.

    Sorry for the OT rant, but since this is the direction the thread has gone I thought I'd point out that most ordinary Americans actually appreciate the benefits the reform will bring them. There has very sadly been a huge and successful propaganda effort AGAINST the interest of ordinary Americans coming from certain political circles which are fundamentally to be frank, subversive of the interests of ordinary Americans.

    And yes, the folks I just described are real folks, and real ordinary people, and they are getting hosed because the reforms have been too little and too late, not because they have been too much and junk.

  9. #53
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    Yes some of my views do resemble Fox news. Dimbulb ? I guess your smarter than 60% of the nations views. Thats Ok. I haven't resorted to name calling and you have. Is that your liberal approach to problem solving. Heath care reform is necessary but not at the risk of bankrupting the nation. There were better approaches that would help but I suspect that really wouldn't want to be heard. Reform...you call it reform. I cant even afford what I used to have. I did at one time until your so called health reform. Reform..yea, take from those who earned it and give to those sitting on the sofa. Liberals everywhere. Try reading what in it.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
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  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Congress of course abides by the constitution, and when it does not it gets brought up short by the courts, as was intended.
    Sometimes, sometimes not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The point is, if our constitution was as clear and free of nuance as so many like to pretend that it is, we wouldn't get these splits. It would be crystal clear in every instance what the meaning is and how each case must go.
    Unless the courts want to usurp Constitutional power and legislate from the bench. This happens all the time. The 9th Circus is a good case in point.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  11. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPro.40 View Post
    . I cant even afford what I used to have. I did at one time until your so called health reform.
    Again with apologies for getting into this topic drift, OT stuff, you say you can not afford what you used to have. I'll assume that is not because of a loss of income, but an increase in your premiums. Do you happen to know (not just guessing) that the premium increase had anything whatsoever to do with these reforms? Most reforms have not even gone into effect at this time and the changes which are in effect are very modest ones---notably allowing people under 26 to remain on their parent's policy; and that won't be fully in effect till April.

    I certainly can understand anger at not being able to afford what you once could afford, but is reform the reason or is the very very long term--to this point unstoppable-- periodic increase in premiums the problem, and isn't that what reform will eventually address?

    Are you confusing the causes of the predicament you are in and attributing it to something which really isn't the root problem?

  12. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Again with apologies for getting into this topic drift, OT stuff, you say you can not afford what you used to have. I'll assume that is not because of a loss of income, but an increase in your premiums. Do you happen to know (not just guessing) that the premium increase had anything whatsoever to do with these reforms? Most reforms have not even gone into effect at this time and the changes which are in effect are very modest ones---notably allowing people under 26 to remain on their parent's policy; and that won't be fully in effect till April.

    I certainly can understand anger at not being able to afford what you once could afford, but is reform the reason or is the very very long term--to this point unstoppable-- periodic increase in premiums the problem, and isn't that what reform will eventually address?

    Are you confusing the causes of the predicament you are in and attributing it to something which really isn't the root problem?
    I'll let you know not only is it the loss of a job but the loss of much more. I was phased out as an adjuster due to the ecomony...downsizing if you will. 15 years. I was out of work almost two years until I found a position making 30k less than what I was making. I still cant find a job in my field. I had seven years left before my house was paid off. To keep from loosing it i had to refinance. I'll be dead before its paid up. I couldn't afford heath care when offered. Thirty three percent higher than what I was paying on 30k less. I now have to rely on the Vets. That doesnt help my family. Terrible care. Oh, I guess that the health care we all want. Don't assume what you may think is fact. You know nothing of me. It sounds like your castles clean. You obviously know no pain associated with this administration. You know nothing. I survived not because some one gave or didn't anything. I survived because I'm a fighter. I'll never quit. I'll never role over to the likes of the liberals. Even in my position I still think the current reform is bad for this nation. It can be done better.
    I apolizize to no one...especially you.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
    Ronald Reagan

  13. #57
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    reading it would have been a lot better if they did not skip Article 4 Section 4 and part of Article 5.
    AND not a single one of them knew it.

    Article 4 Section 4: The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

    Article 5: The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution.
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

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