A free open society and the 2 end amendment

A free open society and the 2 end amendment

This is a discussion on A free open society and the 2 end amendment within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; From Stratfor.com "Initial Profile of the Arizona Congresswoman's Shooter" "http://www.stratfor.com/node/179509/analysis/20110108-more-arizona" "Loughner goes on: In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I can’t trust the ...

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Thread: A free open society and the 2 end amendment

  1. #1
    Member Array dylistn's Avatar
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    A free open society and the 2 end amendment

    From Stratfor.com
    "Initial Profile of the Arizona Congresswoman's Shooter"

    "http://www.stratfor.com/node/179509/analysis/20110108-more-arizona"

    "Loughner goes on:

    In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I can’t trust the current government because of the ratifications: The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar. No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver! No! I won’t trust in God!

    Loughner had this to say about terrorism:

    Terrorist. If I define a terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon. I define terrorist. Thus, a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon. If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is ad hominem. You call me a terrorist. Thus, the argument to call me a terrorist is ad hominem.
    "
    And, from what I’ve seen on the news, this is just a small sample of the numerous incidents that call his sanity into question

    This man is clearly irrational and should not have access to lethal weapons, whether it be Glocks, cars, knifes or clubs.

    Also in my readings on Stratfor, violence and murder occurs in china, not a free or open society. Bladed weapons and bombs being the choice, since guns are highly restricted. Motivations are the same as here: mental illness, business and politics.

    These rantings, combined with the purchase or possession of weapons should have alerted someone. It will be interesting to see who knew this guy had a gun. Nothing I’ve heard, so far would caused him to fail a back ground check. A community college suspended him pending a mental health evaluation, but this could not and should not have made it to a database that would have shown in a back ground check. Or should it? This would have been a violation of his privacy, but a school (public school at that) questioning his sanity, might be a legitimate red flag. It would not be practical for background checkers to search the internet, so the only way such information can be available is by prior databasing. Can we allow such data to be collected?

    Clearly this man’s mental state was grounds for suppressing his 2end amendment rights, but there was no practical way for a back ground checker to know this. Thus no prior restraint was practical without suppressing the 2end amendment for us all. Or a compiling a large very abuseble database on us all.

    The solution, that I fear, is extensive gun licensing involving mental health evaluations, with these very rare cases being used as excuses and this being offered as the only solution
    Last edited by dylistn; January 10th, 2011 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Double pasted. Looked like I was on drugs!


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Occasional shootings like this are the price we pay for avoiding even more mass murder events.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    A free open society and the 2 end amendment
    We are no longer a "free and open society".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    We are no longer a "free and open society".
    Really, R&R; are you expecting a knock on your door tonight for typing that remark?

    Has anyone hauled in Bumper for hosting this site and his other political forum? Is he expecting a knock on his door?

    How could we possibly be more free and open than this set of forums?

    I can move anywhere I want, no one interferes. I can travel anywhere I want, no one interferes.

    What's not free and open?

    Want to drink yourself into a stupor? You can do it. Maybe not the best example of freedom considering all the substances we are prohibited from abusing but you get the point, I hope.

    Want to smoke a stogy, no one stops you except maybe your wife or mother in-law.

    Want to write a book-- you can even self-publish it and no one will interfere.

    If anything, this great invention of the internet has made our society far more free and open in the most important of possible ways; freedom of assembly--through electronic means, and no one interferes. Freedom of speech through electronic means and no one interferes.

    Freedom to petition the government for redress of grievances? It has never been easier thanks to the various web sites Uncle runs with contact forms and auto-delivered e-mail.

    Got banking to do? Is there anyone telling you which bank to use? Want to keep gold instead of currency? Is there anyone telling you that you can't buy the stuff and bury it in a rabbit hole? (That used to be unlawful.)

    Want to carry a gun? With only a few states being exceptions, you can do that if you don't have a really awful history.

    Not free and open? You can file a FOI request on almost anything these days. That wasn't possible in the not too distant past.

    Want to run for office. No one will stop you.

    Added to keep on the 2A theme: more people today have a legal right and ability to carry a handgun than at any point in our history. And, you can have almost any type of weapon you want including as has been discussed here full auto with large capacity mags. Is that an indication of no freedom? Sure you have to pay the tax and fill out some papers, so what?

    Things ain't perfect, but they never will be, not ever in human history.

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    This was a child with limited education. There is no point to even reading or considering whatever prattle it's pathetic, damaged mind was blabbering.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    well if we are going to start a database using mental evaluations for gun owners the crazies will just start using other weapons to do harm. you mention people using blades and clubs in china, why not automobiles here in the US. We have more cars per capita than anywhere else in the world. a pickup or a box truck could have easily done the same thing had it been driven into the crowd looking to kill the congress woman. Should we then ban cars? simply put the crazies will continue to threaten society as long as they have the motivation to do so. They will find the means to carry out their agenda whether it be a sniper/hunting rifle (JFK), a passenger plane (9/11), or a Glock. Knee jerk reactions to a calling for a ban on something or stricter enforcement to something are the things that slowly over time chip away at our freedoms. this was an act of one man who was going to kill regardless of the means in which he had available, do not enforce his mental instability on the rest of the of the 307M US citizens.
    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke

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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    This was a child with limited education. There is no point to even reading or considering whatever prattle it's pathetic, damaged mind was blabbering.
    This was a young adult, not a child, with a limited education, but not unread.

    He was sufficiently literate to have (if we take his word) been reasonably well read and he appears to have borrowed some of his "irrational" ideas from public statements and posting of other equally irrational people.

    Above I mentioned that I once worked at a mental hospital. My boss back then was a tad of a character. He would tell me, "neurotics marry neurotics and psychotics marry psychotics." Basically, birds of a feather....

    I'd say from just the casual look at what is posted above and what I have seen in news stories that this person's ideas about grammar and thought control, his ideas about currency, were far from original. He was a copy cat.

    Our problem here is that as an open society with nearly unlimited freedom of speech, how do we keep the crazies from getting
    together and, (I'm searching for that word in physics -- harmonics I think) producing a large effect through the synchronous harmonic effect of many small irrational voices?

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    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    Little doubt that the perp has serious mental problems.

    The perp failed the US Army drug test: He lied on the Form 4473 when he bought the gun.

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    Plenty of chances for this to have been prevented at some level. He had some bizarre shrine in his parents' backyard, but his parents apparently did nothing. The college he attended suspended him for alleged multiple violent outbursts (the cops were called 5 times, but he wasn't arrested?). The college was worried about his mental stability to the point of getting him evaluated. He promoted the use of pot as currency and failed a drug test to get into the military (why was that not reported to LEO's?). A fellow student knew he had a thing against Rep. Giffords.

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    Member Array dylistn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    Our problem here is that as an open society with nearly unlimited freedom of speech, how do we keep the crazies from getting
    together and, (I'm searching for that word in physics -- harmonics I think) producing a large effect through the synchronous harmonic effect of many small irrational voices?
    Resonance! But harmonics is just about the same. Resonance occurs at a harmonic or natural frequency. And, can result in some spectacular failures. Google Tacoma narrows bridge.
    Excellent analogy. Let me set it up a little different:
    The many small irrational voices (the far left and the occasional crazy who does some shooting) will be the force driver, if the frequency reaches resonance with the public, and the compromising political bodies, we will have our disaster. And that won’t be magazine size limitations. But a license required prior to purchasing a gun! Chicago? Massachusetts? New York . . Already! Next? (I don't know that I got those right, sorry if not, but the point stands)

  11. #11
    Member Array dylistn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    Plenty of chances for this to have been prevented at some level. He had some bizarre shrine in his parents' backyard, but his parents apparently did nothing. The college he attended suspended him for alleged multiple violent outbursts (the cops were called 5 times, but he wasn't arrested?). The college was worried about his mental stability to the point of getting him evaluated. He promoted the use of pot as currency and failed a drug test to get into the military (why was that not reported to LEO's?). A fellow student knew he had a thing against Rep. Giffords.
    I would like to know if someone was in a position to know that this guy had a gun and was more than just a little odd? He was downright irrational and had numerous incidents that could have risen to official significance. The drug test failure? Cops called to a school 5 times? I know that not all people with mental issues can be or should be arrested. But, should some-things, less than an official arrest , result in public records that show up in a back ground check? It is not necessary that this result in suppression of 2end amendment rights; but at least flag that a more personal investigation take place?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    Little doubt that the perp has serious mental problems.

    The perp failed the US Army drug test: He lied on the Form 4473 when he bought the gun.
    The reports I heard on tv were that he never took an Army drug test. He simply admitted to his past use and they rejected him at that point. I of course have no way to know if what I heard is true or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dylistn View Post
    Resonance! But harmonics is just about the same. Resonance occurs at a harmonic or natural frequency. And, can result in some spectacular failures. Google Tacoma narrows bridge.
    Excellent analogy. Let me set it up a little different:
    The many small irrational voices (the far left and the occasional crazy who does some shooting) will be the force driver, if the frequency reaches resonance with the public, and the compromising political bodies, we will have our disaster. And that won’t be magazine size limitations. But a license required prior to purchasing a gun! Chicago? Massachusetts? New York . . Already! Next? (I don't know that I got those right, sorry if not, but the point stands)
    Yes, the point stands indeed. Resonance was the term I was looking for. Many small irrational voices will resonate and result in horrific events, or in your example, bad law. Right now we are drowning in this stuff and to continue with your excellent Tacoma Narrows bridge metaphor, but taking a slightly different angle, the bridge will come down if we continue marching in lock step to the voice of the crazies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    the bridge will come down if we continue marching in lock step to the voice of the crazies.
    Hopyard - I will give it to you, you don't give up easy. Still assigining responsibility to others than the shooter. According to the linked article, "A majority of Americans reject the view that heated political rhetoric was a factor in the weekend shootings in Arizona which killed six and critically wounded a congresswoman, a CBS News said on Tuesday." It is a rather sizeable majority - 2 to 1. BTW - who is "we"?
    "I've noticed that everyone that is pro-abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

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    Member Array dylistn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Hopyard - I will give it to you, you don't give up easy. Still assigining responsibility to others than the shooter. According to the linked article, "A majority of Americans reject the view that heated political rhetoric was a factor in the weekend shootings in Arizona which killed six and critically wounded a congresswoman, a CBS News said on Tuesday." It is a rather sizeable majority - 2 to 1. BTW - who is "we"?
    The crazys will do what crazy do. They'll always be with us. I and most people blame them. Not the rhetoric. I'm worried about those that blame the gun! Worse yet the magazine! It is those who threaten the 2end amendment. The cazys just give them excuses.

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