"LEOs v. citizens, Gun Rights"

"LEOs v. citizens, Gun Rights"

This is a discussion on "LEOs v. citizens, Gun Rights" within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; It is generally agreed that LEOs carry sidearms for the same reason the rest of us do, self defense. Yes it is part of their ...

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Thread: "LEOs v. citizens, Gun Rights"

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    "LEOs v. citizens, Gun Rights"

    It is generally agreed that LEOs carry sidearms for the same reason the rest of us do, self defense. Yes it is part of their job, but they are just citizens doing a dangerous job. My job is dangerous too. So is walking around outside my house! What gives them the right to open carry when other citizens do not have that right? Are there legal provisions in their applicable jurisdictions, or are they using the same state and federal constitutions that we are denied? Can we use this?

    I know that in Virginia, LEOs are exempted from the provisions of the concealed weapon law. Badge = permit. While this is not unreasonable, given their training and background checks, shouldn't they be required to apply for a permit just like us? Certainly they would not be denied in my locale, but it would be interesting to see what other jurisdictions that are anti-gun would do.

    Of course the panacea is Vermont carry, but short of that, what can we do with this information to further our cause?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!


  2. #2
    Member Array M1911's Avatar
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    Even if I could carry openly without attracting undo attention for the local LEOs, I would not. I don't want a perp to know I'm armed. I don't want to give up the element of surprise.

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Change topic?

    Perhaps the topic should have been "LEOs v. citizens, Gun Rights"
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    I would in large part have to agree, LE has a higher percentage of NDs because they all carry, but generally have attitudes no different than the rest of society: some are "gun guys/gals", many just view the sidearm as a tool that they maybekindasorta maintain and practice with.......occassionally.

    I think this is part of the "Us/Them" perspective also- a general reluctance to look at "the boys" with the same jaundiced eye with which the public is viewed. Things that would get a citation/arrest for a civvie get shakes of the head and chuckles when an officer does them. Granted, responsible officers have a dim view of their yahoo cohorts, but as a whole, the rednekks is rednekks, with badges or without(and lots of "rednekks" get into LE because they want to take a stand for what's right- admirable and necessary, but they are becoming imbued with the "I'm the only one professional enough...." BS from socialist admins). Unless and until this is recognized (note I do not say "corrected"), there will continue to be this blue-line friction.

    Yes, I have worked with and around LE, and know whereof I speak.

    LE should have nationwide carry- so should citizens with a highest-common-denominator of CCW training.

  5. #5
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    LEOs have already passed their background checks & have had their criminal history checked out prior to becoming Law Enforcement Officers.
    Obviously then having them apply for an additional "concealed carry license" would be an unnecessary wasted effort and would be a redundant, stupid exercise in total dumbness.

    That is the reason why their badge & LEO ID act as a substitute for a concealed carry permit when they are off duty.

    Law Enforcement Officers are entrusted and empowered by State and Local Government with the officiated professional responsibility of maintaining law and order in society.

    It is their JOB/DUTY to respond to emergency and life threatening situations on a daily basis & in a professional capacity to enforce the laws that society has placed "on the books" ~

    That is not a civilian responsibility - that is a Law Enforcement responsibility.

    Civilians working in other professions are not required or expected to perfom that function or task.

    That is why Law Enforcement officers carry openly while they are on duty performing that valuable service to society.

    It is also a historical part of their uniform going back many generations.

    I agree that lives of ordinary citizens are no more or less valuable than the lives of Law Enforcement Officers and vise versa.

    At this point in time American Structured Society (in general) has determined that "they" do not want all citizens walking around obviously armed.
    They would be the politician's and the citizens they represent...or fail to represent.

    Should such time ever arrive that life in the United States becomes like Israel with Homicide Bombers around every street corner then Congress would probably (under pressure) grant open carry for all citizens.

    Maybe...or maybe not.

    So now...what's your point?
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    News flash: Open carry is legal in VA.

    Police officers get the exemption for CCW laws because of what they go through to get the badge is a lot more than you have to go through to get your permit to carry concealed. This includes a background check, psychological examination, written tests, 6-8 months of oral board interiviews, 600-800 hours of academy training, usually a 2 year degree, and then they get the badge. So in essence, THAT is their "application" for the perk. A lot more than the average Joe has to go through.

    In my state, I took 8 hours of law training and protection in the home training, fired 30 rounds at a target 10 yards away. Then filled out an application, paid $105 and waited a month for my permit to arrive in the mail. I actually had LESS trouble to go through to get my permit.

    The lawmakers trust police officers more than the general public. Deal with it, that is the way it is. I'd like to see Vermont carry nationwide with zero no-carry places (I can see courthouses and correctional facilities, but that is it) just as much as the next guy, but that isn't going to happen any time soon.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    Post

    Title Of This Thread Changed As Per Your Request.

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    Question

    I'm not sure I know what you are driving at here? You want to know why open carry isn't allowed in all 50 states for non-LEO? Some departments and states don't allow their officers to carry while off-duty. It is fairly rare, but it does happen.

    LEOs carry firearms for more than self-defense. They are allowed more latitude in the application of deadly force than civilians.

    Maybe a question is how many LEOs practice open carry versus concealed carry when off-duty? Other than hunting all of the LEOs I know carry concealed when out of uniform. All the VA LEOs I know applied for and received their VA CHP. They did this for reciprocity before the new law granting them nationwide reciprocity.

    I know Larry Pratt is trying to use the nationwide reciprocity for sworn LEOs to try for the same for non-LEO nationwide reciprocity. Until all training requirements, issuing age, etc. are resolved I don't see it happening. Not all states require training. States issue permits at different ages. For example, New Mexico is 25, Indiana is 18.

    Not sure how we can use a LEO carrying gun to our advantage. Maybe I'm missing something that the NRA, GOA, CCRKBA, JFPO and others et. al. haven't seized on yet. Maybe they are working on it ala GOA and Mr. Pratt.
    Procrastinators are the leaders of tomorrow.

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    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    Not sure if you are asking whether you should be allowed open carry in general (as freakshow10mm said above, open carry is not prohibited in VA), or should be allowed to carry while on duty as a paramedic. This should be addressed by your department. I know that some departments in VA (but can't readilly recall which ones) allow their EMTs to carry, as often they are the first responders in a potentially hazardous situation.

    At any rate open carry is not a "right" exclusively given to LEOs as a benefit of their position, but as a condition of their employment. I've known a great many LEOs, being a former one myself, that wouldn't touch a gun if they didn't have to carry one on the job. Hell, I used to ride with one, and he almost got both of us killed more than once.

    My wife is a nurse in the Richmond area, and carries concealed as open carry would not fit the image nurses have of being "angels of mercy."
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

    The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Old Chief's Avatar
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    I dislike the preception on the part of many LEOs that they are superior to civilians. This seems to imply that LEOs are above civilians in the cast system. This preception seems to be enforced by the political elite and judical superior classes. Just my observation relating to the LEOs vs citizen gun rights issue.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array Colin's Avatar
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    Here in Canada, many of us gun owners are pushing for the Firearm Act to apply to Police Officers. A big reason for this is the utter ignorance of the Firearms Act by many Police Officers and occasional the open hostility to anyone else having firearms. The feeling is that if they have to go through the same crap as us and have the same idiotic and illogical laws apply, they will at least be able to properly enforce it and have some sympathy for the average lawful gun owner. I have being teaching a LEO friend of mine on how the law is applied to non-LEO’s, he keeps saying: “But that’s crazy, illogical, doesn’t make any sense” I reply: “This is your first lesson, throw logic to the winds”

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    My point...

    My point is that citizens should have the same rights as LEOs, when it comes to carrying firearms. If a citizen has been backgrounded and tested, why not? Heck, if he's a citizen, why not? CITIZEN should mean something, right?

    I have read all the comments, but no one has advanced any statutory rights or privileges that LEOs have over citizens to carry guns, only that they should because of their job. That's fine, but quote a law that says they get preferential treatment. I'm not saying there aren't such laws, I'd just like to read them myself.

    I know this begs response from 50 differest states, DC, territories, federal, etc., but can anyone prove that LEOs have express codified rights and privileges above average citizens? How does that make you feel? For or against? Please state if you and LEO or not, as your perspective is important in analyzing your thoughts and rationale.

    I used to be an LEO, but I never felt I should have more rights than a citizen, or that my life was worth more to protect than anyone else's.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #13
    Member Array Blackhawk6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002
    I have read all the comments, but no one has advanced any statutory rights or privileges that LEOs have over citizens to carry guns, only that they should because of their job.
    Not an LEO. I just started alphabetically. Here is the statute for Alabama.
    13A-11-52. Carrying pistol on premises
    not his own; who may carry pistol.

    Except as otherwise provided in this article, no
    person shall carry a pistol about his person on
    premises not his own or under his control; but this
    section shall not apply to any sheriff or his deputy
    or police officer of an incorporated town or city in
    the lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or to
    United States marshal or his deputies, rural free
    delivery mail carriers in the discharge of their
    duties as such, bonded constables in the discharge
    of their duties as such, conductors, railway mail
    clerks and express messengers in the discharge of
    their duties
    .
    You can find links to other states firearms laws at http://www.handgunlaw.us/state-link.htm

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Socialists aren't stupid- pick any grossly prohibitive jurisdiction, and the LE mandate will be clearly spelled out. 'Else you could not be prosecuted for carrying in restrictive/-ed areas- you are not "one of Them."

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    In MI, if you are a police officer, correctional officer, or PI/PD (under MCL 338.21 to 338.851), you are not prohibited from carrying in the prohibited Pistol Free Zones. An individual licensed after July 1, 03 who is a retired police officer is also exempted.

    I wish we had no pistol free zones. I could see courthouses and correctional facilities, but those are the only two. Everything else should be legal. It sucks, but as I am going to school for LE, I won't have to worry about it in about a year or so. Then I won't need a CCW in any state.

    So, I am a civilian, with a concealed carry permit, in the process of becoming a police officer. I have a year left of school and then the academy.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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