WSJ attacks "Tactical Knives"

WSJ attacks "Tactical Knives"

This is a discussion on WSJ attacks "Tactical Knives" within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Please feel free to move this if its the wrong forum, but I think its important on a larger scale than just "knife talk." Today ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array DDGator's Avatar
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    WSJ attacks "Tactical Knives"

    Please feel free to move this if its the wrong forum, but I think its important on a larger scale than just "knife talk."

    Today (6-25-06) the Wall Street Journal published an article entitled "How New, Deadly Pocketknives Became a $1 Billion Business." It is on the front page of the "Marketplace" section, but the WSJ does not allow you to read their articles on-line without a subscription.

    Interestingly, there is a picture of a Buck "keyring tactical knife" -- the Metro knife in blue, with tiny blade (1.5"?) and bottle opener.

    A few of the comments in the article include:

    *Knife companies are circumventing switchblade laws with one-handed opening devices.

    *One hand openers are faster than switchblades.

    *"Tactical knives" are small, compact, easily concealed, deadly -- and virtually unregulated.

    *Some knife retailer in California says his customers want to be "tacti-cool."

    *Sypderco makes a knife that "masquerades as a credit card."

    *Ernest Emerson and Benchmade started the tactial knife trend.

    *Tactical knives are a "testosterone thing."

    *Small knives were used by the terrorists on the 9/11 hijackings -- not box cutters.

    *Blade length is "nearly irrelevant" because a trained Marine used a knife with a 2 in. blade to kill a mugger when assaulted by five people armed with a shotgun and a pistol. (I missed this -- sounds darn impressive to me).

    *Small blade knives are inflicting wounds that we would "expect from a bigger blade" according to victim's descriptions of the small knives used.

    *The next wave is going to be plastic knives that are not detectable on metal detectors.

    I am sure there is more -- I had to bang out this post in a hurry, but wanted to get the word out while some of you might still be able to get a hard copy of today's WSJ to read it for yourself.

    Again -- this is a "knife" issue -- but its a whole lot more. This is just a prelude to further disarmament.

    I welcome your thoughts.
    DDGator (Duane)
    www.RealWorldCarryGear.com


  2. #2
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    Duane - unlikely I will get a look at WSJ itself but this smacks of UK type hysterics and hype.

    Much same type of rhetoric gets applied and is comparable for most part with anti gun idiots too. Once more the labels being thrown out are total generalizations and in fact only need directed at all at the criminal fraternity - the good guys are not a problem.

    But yes as ever - attempts to keep frightening the sheep with the best crap they can muster - it's all part of their agenda.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    hmm does " bugmenot " work with WSJ , if so give link lol

    edited to add NOPE , it seems to be an honest pay site , not a spam your email site and as such bug me not wont work , I wont crack it myself lol .
    Last edited by Redneck Repairs; July 25th, 2006 at 06:37 PM.
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  4. #4
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    How New, Deadly Pocketknives Became a $1 Billion Business Mark Fritz. Wall Street Journal. New York, N.Y.: Jul 25, 2006.

    A DECADE AGO, Jim Ray brought together a champion martial artist, a former Navy Seal and a police-weapons specialist to draft designs for what he hoped would be the perfect pocketknife.

    But the high-tech knives the team created were never meant to whittle sticks. Instead, the team produced knives whose blades could be flicked open with one finger faster than the widely outlawed switchblade -- but were still perfectly legal. "Nobody wanted to call it a weapon" at the start, says Mr. Ray, a former proprietor of a North Carolina tourist shop. But eventually, he adds, "that changed." And soon Mr. Ray and the company he formed, Masters of Defense Inc., were marketing the blades' utility when "shooting is just not appropriate."

    Mr. Ray was a pioneer in a technological revolution that has transformed "tactical" knives -- originally used in military combat -- into a $1-billion-a-year consumer business, aimed at just about anyone in the market for a small knife. These 21st century pocketknives, with their curved, perforated or serrated blades and ergonomic grips, can inflict deadly damage, but they are also compact, easily concealed and virtually unregulated.

    In March, a monthly FBI bulletin alerted law-enforcement agents nationwide to "the emerging threats" posed by the knives. Though there are no statistics on how many crimes have involved tactical-style knives, the FBI says knife-related crimes have edged up, to 15.5% in 2004 from 15% in 2000. In that time, violent crime in general dropped 4.1%.

    The knives' popularity has been a boon to some retailers. Mike Janes, owner of Second Amendment Sports, a hunting, fishing and camping superstore in Bakersfield, Calif., says that knife sales have been climbing an average of 25% a year in the past decade and that 75% of the pocketknives he sells are tactical. "Are you tacti-cool? That's what we say down here," Mr. Janes says.

    Dave Vanderhoff, who runs U.S. Martial Arts in Clifford, N.J., recently taught a knife-fighting class that included a judge, a banker, a nurse, a young woman with a belly ring and a French chef from Manhattan. And Spyderco Inc., for example, makes a tactical knife that, when folded, masquerades as a credit card.

    But the marketing techniques for some of the new pocketknives aren't so mainstream. Cold Steel Inc. makes the 3/4-ounce "Urban Pal," which has a 1.5-inch blade. "The Urban Pal should be standard equipment for survival in today's urban jungle," its Web site says.

    Lawyers for the tactical-knife industry have persuaded government officials that even minor manual movement -- no matter how enhanced by levers and springs -- separates the knives from switchblades, which require pressing a button on the handle to flip open the blade. "We have to resist the application of the 1950s switchblade laws to the new technology," says lawyer Daniel Lawson, a knife collector in Pittsburgh who represents the tactical-knife industry. Thirty-seven states now outlaw switchblades, partly because they developed a cult following among teenagers in the 1950s. But, says David Kowalski, a former knife magazine editor and a spokesman for the industry, tactical knifes have remained legal because "the laws across the U.S. are a mishmash because [legislators] really don't know anything about knives."

    Modern tactical knives are rooted in the 1980s, when some martial artists in the U.S. became practitioners of a Filipino style of knife- fighting. An early innovator was Ernest R. Emerson, a martial artist and custom knife builder. In 1995, Oregon's Benchmade Knife Co. collaborated with Mr. Emerson to mass produce the Closed Quarters Combat 7 knife. It opened quickly, locked in place and could be closed with one hand.

    Mr. Emerson, 51 years old, says he insisted on selling that knife for $159, believing the high price, performance and custom look would give it cachet. The knife was a hit, and competition got hot. Mr. Emerson formed his own company in 1997 and says annual sales rose to about $10 million last year from $800,000 at the start.

    Worried that they might face regulatory scrutiny, makers of the new- style pocketknives formed the American Knife and Tool Institute. The trade group credits U.S. Sen. Ron Wyden, an Oregon Democrat, with persuading U.S. Customs in 2001 to stop seizing shipments of one-hand- opening tactical knives that some investigators considered switchblades. A spokesman for Sen. Wyden, Andrew Blotky, says he can't confirm the senator's involvement.

    Soon the upstarts who dominated the self-defense market were jolting the traditional knife industry. Buck Knife Co., a staple among sportsmen; W.R. Case & Sons Cutlery, famed for its collectible pen knives; and Leatherman Tool Group Inc., which makes pocket-sized tool kits, have all introduced tactical knives since 2003.

    "It's a testosterone thing," says Buck's chairman, Charles "Chuck" Buck, 75 years old, who estimates the retail market for tactical knives at $1 billion.

    Leatherman Tool Group jumped on the tactical-knife bandwagon in 2005, introducing a full line of tactical-type knives. The most prominent feature on its knives is the "Blade Launcher" mechanism, which lets the user flip a menacing-looking blade out of its handle with lightning speed. Yet it also has a bottle-cap opener, a nod to Leatherman's heritage.

    Not all makers of tactical knives agree on how to market them. Buck, for example, boasts in marketing materials about the "stopping power" of its tactical knives and bills its "Bones" knife as "bad to the bone."

    But Tom Arrowsmith, chief executive of W.R. Case, accuses competitors of "weaponizing" the pocketknife and says it's an approach his company won't take. He does concede, though, that customer demand has prompted his company, a 117-year-old maker of pretty penknives, to offer a line of one-hand-opening knives with tactical features.

    The blades on most of the new pocketknives are less than four inches long, the maximum length that passengers were permitted to carry onto U.S. airlines before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. In 2004, the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks concluded that the hijackers in those attacks used short knives -- not box cutters -- to seize control of the planes. At the Pennsylvania crash site, 14 badly damaged knife parts were collected, and at least half have tactical- knife characteristics. But the FBI cautions that it can't be sure those parts are from knives that belonged to the hijackers.

    Technology has made blade length almost irrelevant. The city of Atlanta prohibits people from carrying pocketknives in public with blades longer than two inches. Yet, in a widely publicized case, ex- Marine Thomas Autry used a two-inch blade in May to kill one mugger and wound another when he was confronted by five assailants armed with a shotgun and a .38-caliber pistol.

    "Clearly we are seeing wounds you would expect from a bigger blade from what victims say was a small knife," says Andrew Ulrich, a Boston Medical Center emergency-room doctor.

    Mr. Janes of Second Amendment Sports is one of several retailers who have added knife training to their businesses. He says "this large influx of people carrying 'tactical folders' didn't know how to use them."

    Nicholas Nobella, 25, took a four-hour class at the Bakersfield shop. Several months later, he admitted to police that he stuck his tactical knife into stripper Edward Pedrosa, 24, during a melee that broke out when men attending a bachelor party raided a bawdy bash for the bride-to-be, says Kern County, Calif., Deputy District Attorney Matt Magner. Mr. Pedrosa died. Mr. Nobella's lawyer says his client was acting in self-defense.

    Mr. Janes says Mr. Nobella isn't typical of the students at his knife classes.

    Meanwhile, in the race for the next big thing, some companies are competing to make more durable ceramic and plastic knives that can pass through metal detectors. Plastic "assisted-opening" knives that flick open with a slight nudge of the blade can be purchased on eBay for $20.

    Cold Steel sales director Rick Valdez describes the company's $15 "Night Shade" plastic knives as "letter openers." Nonetheless, the company's Web site has a film clip of men attacking slabs of meat and decapitating plywood people, and it notes that the knives can be "taped just about anywhere" on the body.
    George

    Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein

  5. #5
    New Member Array Bloodnut's Avatar
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    If all knives are equally deadly, let's do away with blade length restrictions!
    If you're gonna be stupid, you'd better be tough!

  6. #6
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    This is headed the same way as they are doing in the UK.

    1st, get guns banned---some places the antis have had some success, NYC & Chicago (nearly San Francisco).

    2nd, ban knives---that's what is happening in the UK, already happened in Scotland.

    3rd, ban blunt objects---no more Louisville Sluggers for you.....

    4th, ban sticks & rocks

    5th, ban fists

    6th, ban dirty looks.......see where this is headed?

    The le just go along, while the antis blame the INANIMATE OBJECT for crime instead of the CRIMINAL!

    Knives are just tools, like firearms are! I carry multiple knives & none of them have harmed ANOTHER person (I on the other hand, have cut myself bunches of times.....but never mind the self-inflicted stuff...). I use knives a lot, from cutting open boxes, rope, string or even opening the mail.

    Anybody can use about ANY object to kill or maim with......I can kill with a ham sandwich ......should ham sandwiches be banned?
    Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est.-Seneca

    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. If I have a gun, what do I have to be paranoid about?" -Clint Smith

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  7. #7
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    I can kill with a ham sandwich
    The semi auto I take it! - nasty!!

    Seriously it is true almost anything can be turned to use as a weapon - not forgetting automobiles of course!

    I have said before facetiously - how long before carpenters are out of business, when chisels and screwdrivers are banned. Maybe medicine should be banned from surgery - I mean, scalpels are viscious things.

    What really should be deserving of a ban is stupid idiots who think they can ban the populace into total submissiveness and no means of defence - all the while bad guys will be laughing - all the way to their next mugging (armed of course!).
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm
    ...see where this is headed?
    No place good. It's a long-range slippery slope. In this country, "reasonable" is being spun six ways from Sunday by unreasonable folks. Twisted progress, to be sure. (GBS)

    I can kill with a ham sandwich .
    You should try my strogonoff.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  9. #9
    New Member Array phylament's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goawayfarm
    I can kill with a ham sandwich ......should ham sandwiches be banned?
    If they were, Mama Cass may still be alive

  10. #10
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    Long on emotion, short on fact

    I am a little surprised that the Wall Street Journal would publish this, as I had thought of that paper as more rational than the NY Times or Washington Post. I guess I was wrong.

    You would think that before fulminating about a domestic "problem" like this, you would establish with facts and statistics that it is a problem. But the only reference to statistics was this:

    "Though there are no statistics on how many crimes have involved tactical-style knives, the FBI says knife-related crimes have edged up, to 15.5% in 2004 from 15% in 2000. In that time, violent crime in general dropped 4.1%."

    Think about this a minute - "knife related crimes have edged up, to 15.5% in 2004 from 15% in 2000". What does that mean? 15.5% of what? Perhaps it means 15.5% of all violent crimes involving a weapon? Is an increase of 0.5% in 4 years significant? It sounds miniscule and irrelevant to me. And if all violent crime dropped 4.1% in that period, I presume that knife crime also dropped, since the 4.1% drop is greater than the 0.5% increase in the knife portion of the total.

    I have to conclude that violent crime with knives is dropping in the US, in spite of all those new "tacti cool" knives out there. So where is the problem?

    I still say that the big 8 inch chef's knife in my kitchen is more deadly than all those little 3.75 inch folders.

  11. #11
    Member Array DDGator's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, here is another quote I didn't get...

    "And soon Mr. Ray and the company he formed, Masters of Defense Inc., were marketing the blades' utility when "shooting is just not appropriate."

    Now, who knows if this quote is accurate, or just totally out of context, but...

    When is a blade appropriate when shooting is not? Cutting apples I guess, but that doesn't seem to be the context. That just sounds bad -- like gutting someone like a fish is lesser deadly force than shooting them. Or, you need a knife for secret black ops assasinations in total silence... Its just a really bad quote.

    And, who is the California knife dealer idiot? Who uses "tacti-cool" as a positive expression? I have only heard that term used pejoritively to describe mall ninja types and their ilk.
    DDGator (Duane)
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    DDGator,

    Using a kinfe in lieu of a gun would be appropriate in spaces and places where guns are othrwise not allowed by state or employer law. Also not everyone supports CCW permits and not every person carries a gun. A perfect example are college students everywhere including females in specific who might find themselves facing off with an attacker/rapist.
    Then there at the times when an attacker might be right up on top of you with intent with or without a weapon and not leaving you time or space to draw a concealed gun such as in a vehicle or elevator.
    Also there is the issue of background and environment. There may be bystanders and children or hard surfaces all around such as in a buildings concrete stair way that would not be advisable toward discharging a weapon up close dur to strong potential of ricochet.
    There are a number of reasons and scenarios as to why one might choose to deploy a knife inlieu of a gun or even pepper spray.

    As for the statement of 'tacti-cool' likely the author misquoted the dealers term/statement out of context as it was originally relayed. That happens.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  13. #13
    Ex Member Array BigEd63's Avatar
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    Oh just great........

    Leave it to the media to make mountains out of mole hills.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq
    DDGator,

    Using a kinfe in lieu of a gun would be appropriate in spaces and places where guns are othrwise not allowed by state or employer law. Also not everyone supports CCW permits and not every person carries a gun. A perfect example are college students everywhere including females in specific who might find themselves facing off with an attacker/rapist.
    Then there at the times when an attacker might be right up on top of you with intent with or without a weapon and not leaving you time or space to draw a concealed gun such as in a vehicle or elevator.
    Also there is the issue of background and environment. There may be bystanders and children or hard surfaces all around such as in a buildings concrete stair way that would not be advisable toward discharging a weapon up close dur to strong potential of ricochet.
    There are a number of reasons and scenarios as to why one might choose to deploy a knife inlieu of a gun or even pepper spray.

    As for the statement of 'tacti-cool' likely the author misquoted the dealers term/statement out of context as it was originally relayed. That happens.

    - Janq
    Good points all, but employing a knife in many scenarios has it's own set of problems. I would think that someone stabbed/cut could and would continue their attack with more vigor and for a longer time than if they were shot. Some would undoubtedly not even realize they were cut.

    The whole article seemed inflammatory, and leaves the reader to form his own opinions, such as: another scenario when shooting someone isn't appropriate is when you want to kill silently. Translation: Premeditated homicide.

    Is WSJ anti-gun? I have little knowledge of their editorial leanings. Of course they are in NY, but aren't they primarily a financial rag? That would be like the New England Journal of Medicine, oh, never mind
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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  15. #15
    Senior Member Array TonyW's Avatar
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    Though there are no statistics on how many crimes have involved tactical-style knives, the FBI says knife-related crimes have edged up, to 15.5% in 2004 from 15% in 2000. In that time, violent crime in general dropped 4.1%.
    "Edged" up, I get it, it's a joke! hahaha

    "Are you tacti-cool? That's what we say down here," Mr. Janes says.
    I hope this was taken out of context. I've said "tacti-cool" before, but with some very heavy sarcasm and scorn involved. Knives are tools and should be used and treated as such. Personally, I think some folks take the knife thing too far, but that's just my opinion.

    The blades on most of the new pocketknives are less than four inches long, the maximum length that passengers were permitted to carry onto U.S. airlines before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. In 2004, the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks concluded that the hijackers in those attacks used short knives -- not box cutters -- to seize control of the planes. At the Pennsylvania crash site, 14 badly damaged knife parts were collected, and at least half have tactical- knife characteristics. But the FBI cautions that it can't be sure those parts are from knives that belonged to the hijackers.
    The disclaimer in the last line aside, I've never understood the reasoning behind this whole thing. If the bad guys have knives don't you give guns to the good guys? I've never seen a law that will STOP a bad guy from doing something. It may make it harder, it may punish them more after they do it if caught. But bad guys are bad guys because the break the law and ignore the rule of normal civilized folks.

    Technology has made blade length almost irrelevant. The city of Atlanta prohibits people from carrying pocketknives in public with blades longer than two inches. Yet, in a widely publicized case, ex- Marine Thomas Autry used a two-inch blade in May to kill one mugger and wound another when he was confronted by five assailants armed with a shotgun and a .38-caliber pistol.
    That's right, ban all knives because they are evil! Eeeeeeevilllll!!! And just because one highly-trained guy can take out five muggers with a chop stick doesn't mean I can, or that chop sticks should be banned. (I didn't hear of this story either, this guy must be Chuck Norris reborn.)

    I thought that the WSJ was normally more pro-2A and self-defense than this. Maybe this one just slipped through?
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