(MT) Permitless CC denied!!! Read this...

This is a discussion on (MT) Permitless CC denied!!! Read this... within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The Honorable Linda McCulloch Secretary of State State Capitol Helena, MT 59620 Dear Secretary McCulloch: In accordance with the power vested in me as Governor ...

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    Member Array guardmt's Avatar
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    (MT) Permitless CC denied!!! Read this...

    The Honorable Linda McCulloch
    Secretary of State
    State Capitol
    Helena, MT 59620
    Dear Secretary McCulloch:
    In accordance with the power vested in me as Governor by the Constitution and the laws of the State of Montana, I hereby veto House Bill No. 271 (HB 271), "AN ACT REVISING THE LAW RELATED TO THE OFFENSE OF CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON; PROVIDING THAT THE LAW DOES NOT APPLY TO A PERSON WHO IS ELIGIBLE TO POSSESS A HANDGUN UNDER STATE OR FEDERAL LAW; AND AMENDING SECTION 45-8-317, MCA."
    House Bill 271 would allow anyone "eligible to possess a handgun under state or federal law" to carry a concealed weapon, without a permit. This allows the individual to make his or her own eligibility determination and deprives law enforcement of the opportunity to consider whether the person is a threat to the community.
    Obviously, this bill would greatly imperil the work and safety of Montana's lawmen, including sheriffs and highway patrolmen. Under current law, Montana's sheriffs are responsible for issuing concealed weapon permits. This is as it should be. Sheriffs are
    dedicated, locally-elected, boots-on-the-ground officials who have the best sense of
    their community when it comes to law enforcement and public safety. In this regard, I
    would note that HB 271 is opposed by the Montana Sheriffs and Peace Officers
    Association, and also the Montana Department of Justice, the Montana County
    Attorneys Association, the Montana Association of Chiefs of Police, and the Montana
    Police Protective Association.
    HB 271 would entirely remove the Sheriff's authority and discretion to issue or deny
    concealed weapons permits. It would also, paradoxically, dismantle many reasonable
    Montana laws and regulations which ensure that permit-holders are not unduly
    burdened. For example, HB 271 would void our state's reciprocity agreements with
    more than 30 states that recognize concealed weapon permits; and it would void our
    laws that allow Montana permit-holders to forgo the background check required for a
    firearm purchase.
    Finally, I would like the sponsors of this bill to consider the absurdity of the standard set
    forth in HB 271. If this standard were applied to the issuance of other permits and
    licenses in our society, then nobody could be prosecuted for failure to produce a driver's
    license, a commercial driver's license, a pilot's license, a building permit, a hunting
    license, or any other type of permit. These documents would not be necessary. People
    STATE CAPITOL • P.O. Box 200801 • HELENA, MONTANA 59620-0801
    TELEPHONE: 406-444-3111 • FAX: 406-444-5529 • WEBSITE: mt.gov - Montana's Official State Website
    would simply have to produce evidence that they were "eligible" to possess them.
    cc: Legislative Services Division


    http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townn...ab2d04.pdf.pdf
    Full version
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardmt View Post
    If this standard were applied to the issuance of other permits and
    licenses in our society, then nobody could be prosecuted for failure to produce a driver's
    license, a commercial driver's license, a pilot's license, a building permit, ...
    "the right of the People to drive cars, fly aircraft, and build structures shall not be infringed."

    Wait, that's not what it says?

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    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    This is just my opinion... if you don't like it... tough!
    I don't necessarily agree with any of the legal-ese.
    I think it's a GOOD thing to have reasonable standards for getting a permit. Legal or not, some people have no more business with a firearm than they do propelling a 12,000 pound SUV. Some folks are just a tragedy waiting to happen. The process to earn a permit to carry won't prevent 100% of those accidents any more than earning a drivers license keeps Iphone addicts from texting while driving.
    But unlike the drivers license which is a right of passage which carries year after year until the day you die regardless of actual ability, a CCW can be revoked immediately with any act that would have precluded a permit.
    Also the process of getting it, the firearm safety class, the background check, the fingerprinting, tend to filter out the "riff-raff".

    That being said, I would support a bill that imposes a fine, say $1000 for carrying without a permit, provided they would not have been barred from obtaining a permit.
    Edit:
    Or perhaps an income scaling as someone who make six figures wouldn't see a $1000 fine in nearly the same light as someone struggling just to get by. But starting at $1000 regardless.
    The views expressed above are the opinion of the poster and may or may not be total bunk.
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    Member Array kaboomkaboom's Avatar
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    ....and maybe a 1500 dollar fine for speaking freely,as long as they can prove they are eligible to speak freely...hell, we could raise all kind of money by fining people for exercising their constitutional rights! I Think I have come up with the solution for our debt/deficit problems!!!
    packinnova likes this.

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    The gov should check his facts. A pilot's license is a federal, not state document. It is issued by the FAA.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis128 View Post
    This is just my opinion... if you don't like it... tough!
    I don't necessarily agree with any of the legal-ese.
    I think it's a GOOD thing to have reasonable standards for getting a permit. Legal or not, some people have no more business with a firearm than they do propelling a 12,000 pound SUV. Some folks are just a tragedy waiting to happen. The process to earn a permit to carry won't prevent 100% of those accidents any more than earning a drivers license keeps Iphone addicts from texting while driving.
    But unlike the drivers license which is a right of passage which carries year after year until the day you die regardless of actual ability, a CCW can be revoked immediately with any act that would have precluded a permit.
    Also the process of getting it, the firearm safety class, the background check, the fingerprinting, tend to filter out the "riff-raff".

    That being said, I would support a bill that imposes a fine, say $1000 for carrying without a permit, provided they would not have been barred from obtaining a permit.
    Edit:
    Or perhaps an income scaling as someone who make six figures wouldn't see a $1000 fine in nearly the same light as someone struggling just to get by. But starting at $1000 regardless.
    Lewis128 - Emotionally, your argument makes some sense (except I have never seen a 12,000 pound SUV). The problem is you have to repeal the 2A for it to hold constitutional muster. Yes, I realize that many of the laws about guns are not strictly constitutional. The problem is we have judges that don't uphold the constitution and legislators that could not care less about it.

    If I can say - that guy should not have a gun - what precludes others from saying that about me? This is where the problem lies.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

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    So..., remember who not to vote for in the next election.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    So..., remember who not to vote for in the next election.
    BINGO!
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    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Lewis128 - Emotionally, your argument makes some sense (except I have never seen a 12,000 pound SUV). The problem is you have to repeal the 2A for it to hold constitutional muster. Yes, I realize that many of the laws about guns are not strictly constitutional. The problem is we have judges that don't uphold the constitution and legislators that could not care less about it.

    If I can say - that guy should not have a gun - what precludes others from saying that about me? This is where the problem lies.
    Owning one and keeping it at home is not the same as carrying it. I don't think it should be a crime, just that if you're going to make that decision, you really should take the responsible path. If you are legally permitted to own one and wish to carry I don't see how the permit process is such a burden.
    I frankly don't see how repealing a constitutional right come into play. Seems like a straw man argument, but I'm not a constitutional scholar.

    I don't have any idea what an SUV weighs. But for some reason I remember that a fully loaded tractor trailer has a weight limit of 48,000. Go figure. That may have changed, it's been years since I worked at a warehouse with it's own scale that weighed most trucks before they left to ensure they weren't over-weight.
    That last bit is veering off the topic. If you wish to comment or correct me about ODOT regs, please send it via PM.
    The views expressed above are the opinion of the poster and may or may not be total bunk.
    Viewer discretion is advised.

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    When I first read it I knew he was pretty much "peeing" down every Montanans' back.
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

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    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardmt View Post
    When I first read it I knew he was pretty much "peeing" down every Montanans' back.
    I took about an hour and wrote him a letter expressing my displeasure with his actions. I suggest you do the same. If everybody tells him what they think about it, he might realize he's being an idiot.

    I doubt we'll have the 2/3 majority needed to pass it too. I do, however, no who I'm not voting for.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis128 View Post
    Owning one and keeping it at home is not the same as carrying it. I don't think it should be a crime, just that if you're going to make that decision, you really should take the responsible path. If you are legally permitted to own one and wish to carry I don't see how the permit process is such a burden.
    I frankly don't see how repealing a constitutional right come into play. Seems like a straw man argument, but I'm not a constitutional scholar.

    I don't have any idea what an SUV weighs. But for some reason I remember that a fully loaded tractor trailer has a weight limit of 48,000. Go figure. That may have changed, it's been years since I worked at a warehouse with it's own scale that weighed most trucks before they left to ensure they weren't over-weight.
    That last bit is veering off the topic. If you wish to comment or correct me about ODOT regs, please send it via PM.
    an average SUV is roughly 6-8000k lbs, a fully loaded semi is legal to GROSS 80,000k lbs on five axles. just throwing out my 2c
    Quando Omni Flunkus Moratati

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddjob View Post
    an average SUV is roughly 6-8000k lbs, a fully loaded semi is legal to GROSS 80,000k lbs on five axles. just throwing out my 2c
    depending on the state laws you can go 85500 with a spread axle and stay on state roads

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    Member Array paullie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewis128 View Post
    This is just my opinion... if you don't like it... tough!
    I don't necessarily agree with any of the legal-ese.
    I think it's a GOOD thing to have reasonable standards for getting a permit. Legal or not, some people have no more business with a firearm than they do propelling a 12,000 pound SUV. Some folks are just a tragedy waiting to happen. The process to earn a permit to carry won't prevent 100% of those accidents any more than earning a drivers license keeps Iphone addicts from texting while driving.
    But unlike the drivers license which is a right of passage which carries year after year until the day you die regardless of actual ability, a CCW can be revoked immediately with any act that would have precluded a permit.
    Also the process of getting it, the firearm safety class, the background check, the fingerprinting, tend to filter out the "riff-raff".




    That being said, I would support a bill that imposes a fine, say $1000 for carrying without a permit, provided they would not have been barred from obtaining a permit.
    Edit:
    Or perhaps an income scaling as someone who make six figures wouldn't see a $1000 fine in nearly the same light as someone struggling just to get by. But starting at $1000 regardless.

    the founding fathers had the thought that people did have "business" with a firearm, as an american citizen w/o a feloney record i have already "earned" my permit and the saftey classes are a joke, just like hunters education and your drivers "test"

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    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paullie View Post
    the founding fathers had the thought that people did have "business" with a firearm, as an american citizen w/o a feloney record i have already "earned" my permit and the saftey classes are a joke, just like hunters education and your drivers "test"
    I'm all for people taking safety classes and hunter ed, but it shouldn't be a requirement to be able to CC. Drivers tests are a joke though. Mine consisted of a trip around the block and parallel parking one time.

    Also FWIW, semis routinely gross 80,000 lbs, sometimes more. My Dad was rear ended by one that grossed well over 90,000 lbs. Not that any of this is relevant to this thread.

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