16 y/o shoots two people.. 2nd Amendment issue?

This is a discussion on 16 y/o shoots two people.. 2nd Amendment issue? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I like watching the show "the First 48." For those of you who may not be acquainted with the particulars, it's a true crime homicide ...

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Thread: 16 y/o shoots two people.. 2nd Amendment issue?

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    16 y/o shoots two people.. 2nd Amendment issue?

    I like watching the show "the First 48." For those of you who may not be acquainted with the particulars, it's a true crime homicide show detaining the first 48 hours of homicide investigations all over the US.

    I watch them on Netflix usually while cleaning my kitchen because the narration allows me to listen more than watch.

    Today's episode REALLY got under my skin.

    A 16 year old kid hosts a party at his house. He is known to have drug and alcohol problems and he owes money to two people (a guy and his girlfriend) attending his party (presumably for drugs). He gets into their car with a shotgun and while the guy is driving he shoots him in the back of the head with a 12G and then shoots the girlfriend twice.

    The car wrecks and he sustains a wound to the back of the head and takes off on foot with the shotgun.

    Investigators go to the house and talk to the boys father who admits the boy pretty much has the run of the basement while the parents live upstairs. He says that he goes downstairs to wake his son up the morning after the murder and sees the blood and the wound on his head from the car accident. No mention if he actually questions his son about these things.

    The NEXT morning he goes downstairs to wake his son up for work and the kid is gone.

    Police obtain a search warrant and find bloody pillows and blankets and clothes in the basement along with shotgun shells and a cleaning kit. In the trunk of the parents' car they find the shotgun covered in blood.

    In my irate disbelief to the carelessness of the parents I post on Facebook, "Where were the parents? ... Drugs? Alcohol? Partying? And this kid is allowed to have A SHOTGUN.. ?!?! Am I missing something here?"

    The response I get is, "Yes! The 2nd Amendment!"

    HOW IN THE WORLD is a 16 with drug and alcohol problems having access to a shotgun with which he murders two people a 2nd Amendment issue?

    Does the 2nd Amendment surpass parental authority and the responsibility of a reasonable adult to keep firearms out of the hands of irresponsible hands?

    My brother was allowed to keep firearms in his room while he was a teen. I had access to firearms as a teen (and younger, actually).. but I'd like to believe that if any of us became mixed up with dangerous friends or into questionable practices my parents would have restricted our access to said firearms and with good and legal reason.

    I say this is a parental issue where responsible adults should have kept the shotgun out of the hands of their son. They should have been present for the party and made sure that access to the firearm was restricted from ALL of the party participants (including their son). The kid should never have had access to that shotgun with which to murder two people.

    I do not believe the 2nd Amendment protects a MINOR'S right to keep arms. Thoughts?

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    It is a personal responsibility and maturity issue, and not a Second Amendment issue.

    Drug use is illegal, underage drinking is illegal, murder is illegal, and a 16 year old can not buy a shotgun, or the shells for it.

    So, it has nothing to do with the Second Amendment, it has a lot more to do with poor parenting skills, a television is not a baby sitter, and parents should be involved in their child's life (I don't have any kids, I'm sure it is hard to be a good parent), and an overall lack of personal responsibility that seems to permeate throughout society.
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    Lima, you're on track. It is not a 2nd Amendment issue at all, and as buckeyeLCPL correctly states, it's about personal responsibility and maturity.

    I'll go a step further and suggest that until one has reached the age of majority (voting age), one should not enjoy the full benefit of all rights enumerated by the Constitution. As an example, I do not think a 6-year old child is entitled to "freedom of speech," although presumably his parents are.

    Unfortunately, too many people see things in black and white and assume that all Constitutional rights are applicable in all cases... and blindly call out "Constitutional rights" in the absence of common sense.
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    The 2A does not provide any age requirements like are present in the Constitution for running for the House, Senate of President. That having been said, current law requires a minimum age of 18 to purchase a long gun, so a 16 year old could not have purchased the gun legally. Who knows how he got the gun, it could have been from the parents or from a friend. Shoot, he may have stolen it. The real issue here is the parental style that lets the kid run wild in the basement - at home. If the parents provided the gun or knew that he had it, they will likely have problems with the law. If the parents could not control the kid - and that does happen with some kids - they should have sought alternative arrangements rather than just letting him self direct. This is a poor decision that they will all be paying for for the rest of their lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Who knows how he got the gun, it could have been from the parents or from a friend. Shoot, he may have stolen it. The real issue here is the parental style that lets the kid run wild in the basement - at home. If the parents provided the gun or knew that he had it, they will likely have problems with the law. If the parents could not control the kid - and that does happen with some kids - they should have sought alternative arrangements rather than just letting him self direct. This is a poor decision that they will all be paying for for the rest of their lives.
    Agreed.

    I understand that kids can be sneaky. I understand that kids can do things behind their parents backs and can even find keys and pick or break locks and a LOT can go wrong before a parent is the wiser. If that's the case I'm really sorry for the parents to be woken up to the reality of the monster their son turned into by the police issuing a search warrant and informing them that their son killed two people. And because he was a minor the show was very vague on the details of who owned the shotgun and how he got possession of it. They skirted over all of that really quick.

    I don't have teens yet (give it ten years) but I hope and pray that drug use up to and including meth would not slip past me so easily and I would not be above searching through my kid's room or car with a microscope if I was suspicious of his privacy. Like you said, gasmitty, a 16 y/o shouldn't be able to claim illegal search and seizure because his or her parents searched his room or car. A 10 y/o or 16 y/o shouldn't be able to claim "2nd Amendment" to keep and possess a firearm that they are not mature enough to responsible for.

    My parents went through my backpack, notebooks, looked under my bed and through my closet. They read my diary (where I would purposefully record bogus events to throw them off). They took my door off its hinges. They refused me internet access. They monitored my phone activity. They took the keys away. They monitored the mileage on my car. I didn't like it and sometimes that didn't even stop me but they did the best they could. They found the ONE bottle of alcohol I managed to get my hands on.. you had better believe they would have found a whole shotgun... and after the consequences of the alcohol I don't even want to think about what would have happened to me if they had found an illegal shotgun (if the shotgun this kid had was illegal).

    I sure hope no constitutionalist will ever tell me I don't have the right to restrict my child's access to anything I deem harmful to him or freedom to say anything he wants or do anything he wants because he "has the constitutional right." The Constitution is a great document but I do not believe it should supersede a parents right or RESPONSIBILITY to parent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    ...I sure hope no constitutionalist will ever tell me I don't have the right to restrict my child's access to anything I deem harmful to him or freedom to say anything he wants or do anything he wants because he "has the constitutional right." The Constitution is a great document but I do not believe it should supersede a parents right or RESPONSIBILITY to parent.
    The Constitution, great document that it is, governs interaction between the government, and the citizens of America. And the Bill of Rights Provides protections to the people. It has absolutely no bearing on inter-personal relations of non governmental figures. For example, a private land owner can post a no firearms sign on his property, and not really be restricting my 2nd Amendment rights, because it is HIS property that I am trying to go on. If a burglar breaks into my house and rummages through my stuff, it isn't a 4th Amendment issue, because he is not a part of a government entity. When a movie theater plays the little footage at the beginning of a film, saying not to talk during a movie, it is not a 1st Amendment violation, for the same reasons. If I want to talk, then I shouldn't of paid to have access to that area.

    So I don't think anyone who has really read through the Constitution and understands it, is going to say that is prevents a parent from searching their kid's stuff. But then again, I might be wrong.
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    As an avid watcher of The First 48 I know the exact episode you are talking about. I assumed in the show it was an illegal gun he bought on the streets. I would of thought if it was the parents they would of made mention of that fact. In either case, it had ZERO to do with the 2nd Amendment and everything to do about parenting, or lack thereof which probably started 10 years earlier.

    As an aside there is a new series The First 48: Missing Persons starting in June.
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    Saw the show and it's too bad they couldn't jack daddy up for complicity in the murder due to his allowing the kid to do whatever he wanted pretty much without question
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    In some states, no person may be in the public possession of a firearm while under the intoxicating effects of narcotics (whether prescribed or otherwise) or alcohol...In every state The Gun Control Act passed by Congress in 1968 lists felons, illegal aliens, and other codified persons as prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms. it also makes it illegal to have a weapon in your possession with the intent to use that weapon in a crime....maybe he was stoned or drunk, maybe not...but his second amendment right (if he had one) goes out the window for him regardless of any other facts because but he was certainly in violation of having a weapon with the intent to use it in the commission of a crime, therefore he had no second amendment protect according to the Gun Control Act.... ( this should NOT be construed to infer that I support the Gun Control Act...)

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    This kids parents are complete failures. They are responsible for his actions while living under their roof. They should have made sure he had no access to said weapon. They should have been involved in his life. Sounds to me like he had the run of the basement (as his very own bachelor pad with private entrance etc) and they let him do whatever he wanted. Maybe his parents were a couple of hippie pot heads that didn't give a crap.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    As an avid watcher of The First 48 I know the exact episode you are talking about. I assumed in the show it was an illegal gun he bought on the streets. I would of thought if it was the parents they would of made mention of that fact.
    They were MUCH more vague on those details than they usually are and said it was because he was a juvenile they have to treat things a little differently. I figured it was legal because how else would he have so much obvious paraphernalia for it without the parents being the wiser?

    But then again.. I'm assuming that parents are more active in their kids' lives.

    Cleaning kit... ammo... according to the show boxes of ammo all over the place. I'm very curious as to how a parent could miss that... for that matter, how could a parent miss an entire shotgun?!

    My parents found everything. If I wanted to keep something really hidden from them I never brought it home but then I'd have to worry about a friend's parent finding it and that usually made the punishment worse because I was involving someone else in my behavior. I could have never... let me repeat that.. NEVER gotten away with hiding a whole shotgun and cleaning kit and ammo without them knowing about it... My luck, the first time I tried to clean it or take it apart my Mom would just randomly walk in and my guess is that I'd have 12G shotgun barrel shaped welts all over my body when the police arrived to haul my skinny butt in for questioning as to where I obtained said shotgun.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaboomkaboom View Post
    In some states, no person may be in the public possession of a firearm while under the intoxicating effects of narcotics (whether prescribed or otherwise) or alcohol...In every state The Gun Control Act passed by Congress in 1968 lists felons, illegal aliens, and other codified persons as prohibited from purchasing or possessing firearms. it also makes it illegal to have a weapon in your possession with the intent to use that weapon in a crime....maybe he was stoned or drunk, maybe not...but his second amendment right (if he had one) goes out the window for him regardless of any other facts because but he was certainly in violation of having a weapon with the intent to use it in the commission of a crime, therefore he had no second amendment protect according to the Gun Control Act.... ( this should NOT be construed to infer that I support the Gun Control Act...)
    Yeah, when they finally picked the kid up he broke like a dam and told them everything including that he was drunk when he shot them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I sure hope no constitutionalist will ever tell me I don't have the right to restrict my child's access to anything I deem harmful to him or freedom to say anything he wants or do anything he wants because he "has the constitutional right." The Constitution is a great document but I do not believe it should supersede a parents right or RESPONSIBILITY to parent.
    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    The Constitution, great document that it is, governs interaction between the government, and the citizens of America. And the Bill of Rights Provides protections to the people. It has absolutely no bearing on inter-personal relations of non governmental figures. For example, a private land owner can post a no firearms sign on his property, and not really be restricting my 2nd Amendment rights, because it is HIS property that I am trying to go on. If a burglar breaks into my house and rummages through my stuff, it isn't a 4th Amendment issue, because he is not a part of a government entity. When a movie theater plays the little footage at the beginning of a film, saying not to talk during a movie, it is not a 1st Amendment violation, for the same reasons. If I want to talk, then I shouldn't of paid to have access to that area.

    So I don't think anyone who has really read through the Constitution and understands it, is going to say that is prevents a parent from searching their kid's stuff. But then again, I might be wrong.
    You guys may want to read up on the UN's Convention on the rights of the child. The current administration is on record as being in favor of ratifying this treaty. If you, as a gun owner, don't know the gist of this treaty, you should. Not only will it give kids superior rights to their parents, it will also be the vehicle that will ban private gun ownerhsip in this country if ratified. Idaho has begun a movement to put in a constitutional amendment favoring the rights of parents to raise their kids. Illinois and Rhode Island are pushing for ratification of the UN Convention. No surprises - Idaho has sane people in their government and Illinois and RI don't.

    You can find the UN Convention at this link - UNICEF - Convention on the Rights of the Child -

    You can find more info here - http://www.parentalrights.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={96190840-EC3B-4A5E-80EE-9719625B62A5}
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Thoughts?
    Welcome to my world...where people's lack of understanding of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms will be what ends up destroying it for all of us.

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    Fail parents are fail.

    As a parent to a 14 & 12 y/o...there is NO excuse for the parents not knowing what was going on. I haven't lived the life of an angel. In my youth, I smoked weed, drank underage, etc...but my parents found EVERYTHING. Fast forward to now...I eagle eye them constantly. I make sure it's not overtly obvious...but they also know daddy was a recon specialist that likes to study profiling on the side. They're good kids, but sometimes, even good kids get caught up in bad habits.

    As for constitutional rights for kids....I'm not sure, I'd have to read it again, but is there any specific mention of age in the Constitution? My personal stance is and always will be that: The Constitution is for the adults, parents are for the minors and at no point will, like Lima said, allow constitution get in the way of proper parenting...not happenin.
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    It has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment and everything to do with parental failure! However, when I was growing up, teacher and parents spanked kids who misbehaved. Thanks to Dr Spock and the liberal "forward thinkers" of the 60s and 70s, that is no longer possible. A teacher who spanked a child would be fired by the school board, then sued by the parents. Parents have been arrested for spanking their kids! I know a young woman who was arrested after her 17 year old daughter called the cops because her mother grounded her and then grabbed her when she tried to leave the house anyway! She had to go to court and was put on probation! She told the court to keep the kid, but that didn't fly! Being a parent and raising kids is a difficult undertaking. I was lucky in that I had no major problems with any of mine. However, it appears that the parents in this case made little or no effort to supervise their son and ensure he grew up to be a responsible and law abiding citizen. And given his drinking and drug use, there is no way he should have had access to a firearm.
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