The 1st Amendment and Nosy Doctors

This is a discussion on The 1st Amendment and Nosy Doctors within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; When I read the question " do you have firearms in the house" ? I was reminded of the old military ryhme that dealt with ...

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  1. #31
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    When I read the question " do you have firearms in the house" ?

    I was reminded of the old military ryhme that dealt with gun. Most of you vets will know it.

    The evil part of me would want to answer...

    "This is my rifle, this is my GUN, this is for shooting and this if for FUN."

    Sometimes you just have to take the high ground...
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    my doc has know im a shooter since he came on board 'my' medical practice 15 years ago. we recently traded an afternoon at the range together for an hour+
    sit down medical 'me' conversation. words have meaning and years of referancing many medical issues ( anyone with parents and grand parents will understand)
    allowed us a meaningful ( for me) conversation unlike anything you will ever get during a regularly scheduled visit.

    careful not to paint with too wide a brush
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkphillips View Post
    So why don't the Docs ask if there is a lawn mowers, sealed gas cans, posion, cars on blocks, bikes, power tools not put up, dogs, cats, pool, swing, un-capped wells, go-cart, mini-bikes, if they are so concerned about the safety of a child at home?
    Because the AMA has an anti-gun agenda. Ant-lawn mower doesn't scare up enough votes.

    That is all.
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  5. #34
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Naah Hamlet. It's not a reasonable question except in your mind. It is someone else inappropriately assuming a right to question you. Perhaps it doesn't amount to anything at the onset but your control over you life is effectively relinquished.

    Here's a quick cut-'n-paste internet definition of tyranny. Take note of the third definition and tell us that instituting such questioning nonsense is not sliding pretty far down the slippery slope toward tyranny. The first definition isn't half bad either when examining this topic of the expediency of the medical field feeling it has the right and obligation to question us. If they feel they have the right to question us then it follows that they feel we have the obligation to provide answers. Do you want to answer for yourself? Do you want to have to answer for yourself about every tiny facet of your life? What is off limits? Who sets those limits? Should their ever be a limit to what an individual has to answer for?

    ________________________

    Tyr·an·ny
    noun \ˈtir-ə-nē\
    plural tyr·an·nies
    Definition of TYRANNY
    1
    : oppressive power <every form of tyranny over the mind of man — Thomas Jefferson>; especially : oppressive power exerted by government <the tyranny of a police state>
    2
    a : a government in which absolute power is vested in a single ruler; especially : one characteristic of an ancient Greek city-state b : the office, authority, and administration of a tyrant
    3
    : a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force <living under the tyranny of the clock>
    4
    : an oppressive, harsh, or unjust act : a tyrannical act <workers who had suffered tyrannies>

    _________________________

    Acceding to such questioning about personal matters will certainly condition the population to accept controls when they inevitably come whether it's the government sticking its nose into matters or the government allowing or even promoting insurance companies to institute costly premiums or outright policy denials for those who choose to exercise their constitutionally guaranteed freedoms. Freedoms you say we should stop screaming about.


    "...there is no law needed against them asking relevant questions because you are perfectly free to not answer them, find a lawyer you like more ... or another doctor..."


    Nope, there isn't now a law nor an insurance policy restriction in place. What happens in future when one is instituted?

    What happens when a hefty surcharge is tacked onto insurance premiums for policy holders with guns in their home; that is if they will be able to obtain insurance at all? What happens when doctors won't treat a gun owning patient? It is not beyond the realm of possibility for gun owners to be "bilked for freedom" in the not too distant future. We're already fee'd to death in so many other unnecessary ways. Why not for some erroneously perceived risk? The populace is conditioned to think that it is a reasonable question.

    I don't think so.
    So we revolted against one of the most powerful nations on earth because we were being treated like it owned us, we fight Nazism and Fascism threatening to take over the ENTIRE earth and kill another 20,000,000 or twice that, we face off in hair-trigger nuclear danger against the Soviet Union for 4 decades --- and THIS is what becomes of us: whining about the tyrannical chains of our DOCTORS' QUESTIONS?

    Sounds absolutely horrible! Other nations should intervene with whatever it takes to SAVE us.....



    Lordy...........

    Excuse me while I lose myself in memories of the Cuban Missile Crisis - I need to go to a safe place in my mind - just for a break from the horrors all around us. Just today my grocer asked how I like his melons! I was SO terrified; I didn't know what to DO!


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well, if you're always looking for tyranny you'll find a lot of it.

    Sounds like a fun hobby.... Enjoy!

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Tala's Avatar
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    So the same people who are asking if you have guns in the house, "because they are a safety risk" are also asking if you use a carseat for your child every time you drive somewhere, right? Coz we all know cars kill a lot of kids. Maybe they should also ask if you're providing condoms to your pre-teens too, ya know all that stuff. If they were really interested in "protecting the children" . . . .
    I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I expect the same from them. -- John Wayne as John B. Books in "The Shootist"

  7. #36
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tala View Post
    So the same people who are asking if you have guns in the house, "because they are a safety risk" are also asking if you use a carseat for your child every time you drive somewhere, right? Coz we all know cars kill a lot of kids. Maybe they should also ask if you're providing condoms to your pre-teens too, ya know all that stuff. If they were really interested in "protecting the children" . . . .
    "The SAME PEOPLE......." ? Hmmmm..... a spreading conspiracy, hey? Not just an occasional Nazi-Pediatrician, but now crowds on street corners beginning to whisper invasive questions as you pass by....

    Time to get out the tin-foil hat and signal the Militia that the Blackhawks are moments away.
    Last edited by hamlet; June 10th, 2011 at 11:32 AM.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    So we revolted against one of the most powerful nations on earth because we were being treated like it owned us, we fight Nazism and Fascism threatening to take over the ENTIRE earth and kill another 20,000,000 or twice that, we face off in hair-trigger nuclear danger against the Soviet Union for 4 decades --- and THIS is what becomes of us: whining about the tyrannical chains of our DOCTORS' QUESTIONS?

    Sounds absolutely horrible! Other nations should intervene with whatever it takes to SAVE us.....

    Lordy...........

    Excuse me while I lose myself in memories of the Cuban Missile Crisis - I need to go to a safe place in my mind - just for a break from the horrors all around us. Just today my grocer asked how I like his melons! I was SO terrified; I didn't know what to DO!
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Well, if you're always looking for tyranny you'll find a lot of it.

    Sounds like a fun hobby.... Enjoy!

    So clever and mocking and yet, so vacuous.

    Yeah, we revolted against England who really did happen to legally "own" us at the time and we did it over far fewer real grievances than may be registered against our current government who treats us like it owns us, our incomes, and our offspring's income. Or, are you ok with the way government spends our money and with the amount of taxes you currently pay, the way they are levied, and the convoluted system under which they are administered? Does being intrusively regulated by small-minded government bureaucrats and managed by their pin-headed, bean counter cohorts in the private business sector have a certain appeal to you?

    The land of the free and the home of the brave. What does that mean? Freedom from thinking for oneself? Bravely submitting to the requirement that one allows the State to think for him? Is that where the bravery comes in?

    This isn't 1776, 1941, or even 1962. The generations who lived in those times had doctors who asked questions related to the health and the condition of the patient. They didn't have to put up with doctors who embrace agendas and ask foolish, prying questions, unrelated to health and healing. We, the people, used to be the government. That concept has eroded through a many-decades long process. Mostly because people became ignorant and apathetic and politicians quickly took advantage of them. Now our constitution is just something warm and fuzzy that we venerate but that has about all the relevance of the British Crown. Both are nice relics that apparently make folks feel good. Both are effectively toothless.

    The snide remark about melons is telling. A day might come when there are no melons in the grocer's counter. Oppressive government can be that way. Take a historical peek into the Soviet Union in the 1930s. There are a host of other examples, some are even current. North Korea comes to mind.

    There are a number of oppressive states who adopted high sounding names like "People's Democratic Republic of..." during the 20th century. Saying it's so doesn't make it so and the folks living with the borders of those states have never enjoyed self governance, freedom or prosperity. Their countries may as well be called "Peoples Democratic Republic of Tyranny." The United States is heading that direction. The enemy is internal and is the people of this nation who are asleep and are allowing evil to take over. Unless we show some gumption like those generations who wrested a colony from oppression and formulated a unique system of governance that served to build a great nation, whipped Hitler and Tojo and the forces behind them, and persevered against the machinations of the Soviet Union in the Cold War then we'll be reduced to being slaves to our government too. A government which even now would be mostly unrecognizable to its founders.

    Other nations won't save us if we cannot save ourselves. They will be happy to gather and fight over the carcass though.

    There is a lot of tyranny about in this old world and if one never looks for tyranny then he will fall to see it when it is upon him.

    We'll have just as much bad government as we're willing to tolerate and it appears that we're willing to tolerate quite a lot.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
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    I have seen some really bizzare things on several gun forums (forae?) but this one has to take the cake. The first thing you learn in Medical School is to 'take a thorough history.' Any one who has watched 'House' knows what happens when Doctors don't ask or patients don't tell. Let's say you have wrist pain. Do you think your carpal tunnel problem could be related to pushing those .45 slugs down the range? How about symptoms of lead poisoning e.g. brain, heart, lungs, gut, psych, etc. Do you think it's OK if your doctor asks if you've been exposed to gunshot residue? How did you get that burn on your neck? Hot brass? Or that superficial wound on your leg? From steel shooting?
    Anything else you want to keep hidden? Travel History, animal exposure, etc.
    I flat out asked my doctor to check my lead level becasue I had been shooting so much and I'm glad I did becasue it was high. Turns out he's a gun nut too and we had a nice chat...

    How about a little rationality here...
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    I have seen some really bizzare things on several gun forums (forae?) but this one has to take the cake. The first thing you learn in Medical School is to 'take a thorough history.' Any one who has watched 'House' knows what happens when Doctors don't ask or patients don't tell. Let's say you have wrist pain. Do you think your carpal tunnel problem could be related to pushing those .45 slugs down the range? How about symptoms of lead poisoning e.g. brain, heart, lungs, gut, psych, etc. Do you think it's OK if your doctor asks if you've been exposed to gunshot residue? How did you get that burn on your neck? Hot brass? Or that superficial wound on your leg? From steel shooting?
    Anything else you want to keep hidden? Travel History, animal exposure, etc.
    I flat out asked my doctor to check my lead level becasue I had been shooting so much and I'm glad I did becasue it was high. Turns out he's a gun nut too and we had a nice chat...

    How about a little rationality here...
    I agree with you on the relevant history aspects, but there were some physician groups (particularly the American Academy of Pediatrics) which took this to an entirely different level.

    This is what the AAP used to say on their website:

    WHERE WE STAND: GUN SAFETY

    The most effective way to prevent firearm-related injury to children is to keep guns out of homes and communities. The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly supports gun-control legislation. We believe that handguns, deadly air guns, and assault weapons should be banned.

    Until handguns are banned, we recommend that handguns and handgun ammunition be regulated, that restrictions be placed on handgun ownership, and that the number of privately owned handguns be reduced. Firearms should be removed from the environments where children live and play, but if they are not, they must be stored locked and unloaded. Loaded firearms and unloaded firearms and ammunition represent a serious danger to children.
    They sanitized their site when the Florida law was being debated. In itself, that's a bit telling.

    That's not patient advocacy - that's political advocacy. If someone subscribing to those beliefs is asking questions about gun ownership (and even discharging patients from their practice based on the answers or refusal to answer), that's an issue IMHO.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  11. #40
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    Sure. Gun related questions as they are related to a condition such as hearing, carpal tunnel etc. are fine and welcome as long as they remain clinical. Prying questions connected with firearms ownership don't pass muster as clinical and everyone here in the Forum is intelligent enough to know the difference. Yeah, a little rationality will be fine.

    I've got a piece of bullet jacket in my head. I chose to tell my doctor how it got there when he discovered a bit of metal in my head. I wanted his advice on what to do about it.
    Carelessness: Or How I Shot Myself With a .30-06

    I never watch TV so don't know what is shown on "House."
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  12. #41
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    Those who wish to "abolish" guns know no bounds, they operate on the principle that "doing good has no end" and they will do ANYTHING to see their agenda come to pass. We have seen through the years, many different methods to try to outlaw, or do away with guns. One of the more recent ideas was to try to force the gun manufacturers into bankruptcy with frivolous law suits. The idea of huge excise taxes on ammunition was as recent as the Clinton administration. I fear these "simple" and as they put it "well meaning questions" by Doctors are just another "method" the anti's are going to employ. The A.M.A. is absolutely anti-gun, as well as the American Academy of Pediatrics, not to mention the stance the C.D.C. adopted years ago. If gun owners can be denied health insurance, or by making health insurance so expensive for gun owners, (because they engage in dangerous behavior) they can not afford it, their anti-gun agenda will move forward. Make no mistake, the government wants guns gone. Without a doubt our guns will go away at some point in time, it probably will only take one more generation to accomplish it. Look at the "mindset" children are being taught in school, the mere word gun is treated as profanity. The animal rights crowd is pushing their agenda in schools as well. If they can abolish hunting, then they can claim that there is no longer any legitimate need for guns. We all know exactly what will happen to crime when the firearms are gone, we need only to look at Australia or the United Kingdom in their post-gun ban era. You may think I am too radical in my thinking, or perhaps even call me a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe there is one big master plan to eliminate the guns. When they are gone government can do anything they please, there will be no way to stop anything. Russia did it, Germany did it, and by the time the people woke up it was too late. I pray we will not go the way they did.
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  13. #42
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    I have seen some really bizzare things on several gun forums (forae?) but this one has to take the cake. The first thing you learn in Medical School is to 'take a thorough history.' Any one who has watched 'House' knows what happens when Doctors don't ask or patients don't tell. Let's say you have wrist pain. Do you think your carpal tunnel problem could be related to pushing those .45 slugs down the range? How about symptoms of lead poisoning e.g. brain, heart, lungs, gut, psych, etc. Do you think it's OK if your doctor asks if you've been exposed to gunshot residue? How did you get that burn on your neck? Hot brass? Or that superficial wound on your leg? From steel shooting?
    Anything else you want to keep hidden? Travel History, animal exposure, etc.
    I flat out asked my doctor to check my lead level becasue I had been shooting so much and I'm glad I did becasue it was high. Turns out he's a gun nut too and we had a nice chat...

    How about a little rationality here...
    Yes, you're right, this is all based on absurd assumptions, seeing an elephant in a flea. So, one more time so all can see rationality, i.e., reality:

    "I have seen some really bizzare things on several gun forums (forae?) but this one has to take the cake. The first thing you learn in Medical School is to 'take a thorough history.' Any one who has watched 'House' knows what happens when Doctors don't ask or patients don't tell. Let's say you have wrist pain. Do you think your carpal tunnel problem could be related to pushing those .45 slugs down the range? How about symptoms of lead poisoning e.g. brain, heart, lungs, gut, psych, etc. Do you think it's OK if your doctor asks if you've been exposed to gunshot residue? How did you get that burn on your neck? Hot brass? Or that superficial wound on your leg? From steel shooting?
    Anything else you want to keep hidden? Travel History, animal exposure, etc.
    I flat out asked my doctor to check my lead level becasue I had been shooting so much and I'm glad I did becasue it was high. Turns out he's a gun nut too and we had a nice chat...

    How about a little rationality here..."

  14. #43
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    As you say, Hamlet.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  15. #44
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    The American College of Emergency Physicians is a practice regulating and quality oriented organization of Emergency Physicians trying to insure that physician practice is informed by science and aimed at improving patients' health. It is one of the leading professional organizations for emergency physicians. From Time to time they publish policy statements that are usually 'value oriented" comments on medical practice. I'm not sure what the discussion was on this issue but it would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall... I also don't know if any of the board are shooters.

    Firearm Injury Prevention

    [Ann Emerg Med. 2011;57:691.]

    The American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP)
    deplores the improper use of firearms resulting in death and
    injury. The College supports legislative and public health efforts
    to prevent firearm-related injuries and deaths.
    ACEP endorses efforts to:

    • aggressively enforce current laws against illegal possession,
    purchase, sale, or use of firearms;

    • ensure that new firearms are rendered as safe as possible
    through regulation similar to that used for other consumer
    products;

    • decrease the threat to public safery that results from the
    widespread availability of assault weapons and high-capacity
    ammunition-feeding devices, including a ban on the sale of
    assault weapons and high-capacity magazines;

    • limit the availability of firearms to those whose ability to
    responsibly handle a weapon is assured;

    • encourage the creation and evaluation of community- and
    school-based education programs targeting the prevention of
    firearm injuries;

    • educate the public about the risks of improperly stored
    firearms, especially in the home;

    • increase funding for the development, evaluation, and
    implementation of evidence-based programs and policies to
    reduce firearm-related injury and death;

    • hold individuals legally accountable for harm resulting from
    unauthorized use of firearms; and

    • work with stakeholders to develop comprehensive strategies
    to prevent firearm injury and death.


    Revised and approved by the ACEP Board of Directors
    January 2011

  16. #45
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    The American College of Emergency Physicians is a practice regulating and quality oriented organization of Emergency Physicians trying to insure that physician practice is informed by science and aimed at improving patients' health. It is one of the leading professional organizations for emergency physicians. From Time to time they publish policy statements that are usually 'value oriented" comments on medical practice. I'm not sure what the discussion was on this issue but it would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall... I also don't know if any of the board are shooters.

    Firearm Injury Prevention

    [Ann Emerg Med. 2011;57:691.]

    The American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP)
    deplores the improper use of firearms resulting in death and
    injury. The College supports legislative and public health efforts
    to prevent firearm-related injuries and deaths.
    ACEP endorses efforts to:

    • aggressively enforce current laws against illegal possession,
    purchase, sale, or use of firearms;

    • ensure that new firearms are rendered as safe as possible
    through regulation similar to that used for other consumer
    products;

    • decrease the threat to public safery that results from the
    widespread availability of assault weapons and high-capacity
    ammunition-feeding devices, including a ban on the sale of
    assault weapons and high-capacity magazines;

    • limit the availability of firearms to those whose ability to
    responsibly handle a weapon is assured;

    • encourage the creation and evaluation of community- and
    school-based education programs targeting the prevention of
    firearm injuries;

    • educate the public about the risks of improperly stored
    firearms, especially in the home;

    • increase funding for the development, evaluation, and
    implementation of evidence-based programs and policies to
    reduce firearm-related injury and death;

    • hold individuals legally accountable for harm resulting from
    unauthorized use of firearms; and

    • work with stakeholders to develop comprehensive strategies
    to prevent firearm injury and death.


    Revised and approved by the ACEP Board of Directors
    January 2011
    They're good. Who's in favor of death by injury from anything....

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