drinking and shooting or shooting and drinking.

drinking and shooting or shooting and drinking.

This is a discussion on drinking and shooting or shooting and drinking. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Those of you not too hungover to be unable to open your eyes have probably seen by now the article written for the LA Times ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
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    drinking and shooting or shooting and drinking.

    Those of you not too hungover to be unable to open your eyes have probably seen by now the article written for the LA Times and subsequently picked up by newspapers across the country.

    It describes an article in Injury Prevention by Garren J. Winemute Association between firearm ownership, firearm-rel... [Inj Prev. 2011] - PubMed result regarding the association between gun ownership and alcohol use. If you own a gun you are more likely than non-gun owners to drink 5 or more drinks in a single sitting and to drive while having drunk too much.

    Or, maybe it's if you tend to drive drunk, you tend to own a gun. (Causality cannot be determined by this sort of study - only associations). The odds ratio (OR) was 1.39. Odds ratio is a non-intuitive way of comparing the odds of something happening in one group to the odds of it happening in the other group. Statisticians favor it for technical reasons but normal people just find it confusing. In horse racing, where the "odds" are actually statistical probabilities you can quickly calculate OR's. Suppose that one horse has odds of 1:2 (i.e. one chance in three he’ll win, and two chances in three he’ll lose), and another horse has odds of 1:4 (i.e. 1 chance in five he’ll win, and four chances in five he’ll lose). The odds ratio of the first horse to the second is (1/2)/(1/4), which is 2. The unfortunate thing is that this does NOT tell you the actual probablilty of the event happening. It could be quite small (e.g. .005/.0025 also =2). This will certainly not stop people from misquoting the findings.

    Dr. Winemute has written extensively about guns, gun control, gun accidents, gun shows, firearm possesion, etc. If you go to pubmed.gov and search for his name, a long list of articles will come up; he is quite prolific.

    He also points out in this recent study (Inj. Prev. 2011, June 13th) that the OR for drinking and driving with vs without gun ownership is 1.79 and for having more than 60 drinks per month the OR was 1.45. Additionally, "Heavy alcohol use was most common among firearm owners who also engaged in behaviours such as carrying a firearm for protection against other people and keeping a firearm at home that was both loaded and not locked away." The abstract ends with, "The author concludes that firearm ownership and specific firearm-related behaviours are associated with alcohol-related risk behaviours." Or, one could say that alcohol related risk behaviors are associated with firearm ownership. Or that the two things are actually related to a third thing not studied. For example the grass turning green and the flowers blooming are related to each other in time but both are caused by the coming of spring.

    We don't know how many alcoholics own guns or how many gun owners are alcoholic. I think it is safe to say that most of us would agree that even if alcohol and gun powder do mix, it would taste terrible. We might even go so far as to say that one shouldn't carry when drinking or drink when carrying just as we might say that drinking and driving are not a good idea. In any case, I'm betting you will hear aobut this study again.


  2. #2
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    Not too surprising. I suspect that the profile of many gun enthusiasts tend to be those who play hard. With that personality type comes all of the other hard-core tendancies.
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    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    So, some stupid people do stupid things...& they happen to own guns?
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

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    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    DoctorBob another point I find interesting is the science of data management, one of the things we do when looking at data is check for those strange occurances. When you have strange occurances you can resonably throw the data out and not include the data in your findings. If you throw out enough data you can get the data to confirm your assumptions (cook the data).

    Statistics do not lie, but sometimes statisticians do with or with out a drink!
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm View Post
    So, some stupid people do stupid things...& they happen to own guns?
    No, more like, stupid people who drink and drive are more likely to own guns than stupid people who don't drink and drive. Or stupid people who own guns are more likely to drink and drive than stupid people who don't own guns...

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    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    I must be Ok since I only have 3 drinks in a single setting. Does it count more if they are doubles?

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    It's called being an American. With freedom comes issues. But there are always people who are stupid even in non free societies. If you took those same results and applied them to the cold war area Soviet Union, you would get the drinking and driving, minus the gun ownership. And they love their vodka. So the statistics can be skewed to show anything one wants.
    Statistics are low profile mind control used by liberals to spew their BS. Period.
    OD* and JoJoGunn like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    This is just about as useful as the 'studies' that claim that owning a gun makes you more likely to be a murder victim, or such. There might be a reverse correlation, e.g. if gang members represent a disproportionate percentage of murder victims, and gang members in general are more likely to own a gun, then one could draw the errant conclusion that owning a gun increases your chances of being murdered. When looking at the big picture, it is obvious that it is the gang member's lifestyle that is the cause of their disproportionate representation as murder victims. The inanimate object, itself, has nothing to do with the choices you make, the actions you take, or the people you hang around.

    Statistical associations such as these are nearly useless -- I will bet good money that the members of this forum are far less likely to drink too much or drive while drunk -- can any rational person actually believe that owning a gun causes you to drink 5 or more drinks in a single sitting or to drive while intoxicated? No, but that's exactly what the average person will hear has been 'proved' by statistics. I will also bet that Garren J. Winemute has very carefully selected the subjects for his study in order to give the illusion of statistical support for a predetermined agenda.
    oneshot likes this.

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    38% of people that quote statistics make them up as they go along.
    atctimmy likes this.
    CCW permit holder for Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country but not my own.

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    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Seeing as he was studying only those who drink excessively, what about the people left out? Those who drink little, if any, and were omitted.

    A pretty meaningless study because the author has a pre-determined vision and looked for subjects that helped prove his pre-determination.
    jwhite75 likes this.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Can I get a Drink..............
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    I guess the authors of this study failed to look at the data that shows CHL holders are fractionally as likely to commit a criminal offense as non CHL holders.

    Those are numbers I can trust and they mean something IMO.

    I don't however get the association with 2A here though.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyBunny View Post
    38% of people that quote statistics make them up as they go along.
    Unless it's an anti gunner.....then it is more like 83%!
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    No, more like, stupid people who drink and drive are more likely to own guns than stupid people who don't drink and drive. Or stupid people who own guns are more likely to drink and drive than stupid people who don't own guns...
    I'll drink to that.

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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    I, for one, own 3 guns and do not drink. I got married a month ago yesterday and my wife and I got a bottle of some sort of liquor as a wedding present. 34 proof, nothing too hard. My wife and I are both 23, but don't drink, so we're trying to figure out what to do with it. More guns than people in our household, but no drinkers.
    My blog

    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

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