Obama Executive Order Cannot Legally Enact Rifle-Reporting Law

This is a discussion on Obama Executive Order Cannot Legally Enact Rifle-Reporting Law within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Obama Executive Order Cannot Legally Enact Rifle-Reporting Law Ammoland.com ^ | 14 July, 2011 | Alan Korwin http://www.ammoland.com/2011/07/14/o...reporting-law/ Posted on July 15, 2011 7:30:44 AM ...

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Thread: Obama Executive Order Cannot Legally Enact Rifle-Reporting Law

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    Exclamation Obama Executive Order Cannot Legally Enact Rifle-Reporting Law

    Obama Executive Order Cannot Legally Enact Rifle-Reporting Law
    Ammoland.com ^ | 14 July, 2011 | Alan Korwin
    http://www.ammoland.com/2011/07/14/o...reporting-law/
    Posted on July 15, 2011 7:30:44 AM

    PHOENIX, AZ --(Ammoland.com)- Effort to Bypass Congress Is Illegitimate, Experts Say Similar Laws Have Required Bills, Open Debate and Recorded Votes. The news Media is Asleep at the Wheel, Reporting Without Questioning. The Firearm Owners Protection Act Bans Such Proposals Altogether and Congress has Already Rejected Reporting for Long Guns.

    If this stands up, limits on power fall apart — Is that the true goal of Project Gunrunner?

    The effort by the Obama administration to establish new gun law by executive order is not a legal method for enacting law in the United States, according to Alan Korwin, a national expert on gun law and author of nine books on the subject. Other experts agree that such a measure requires an act of Congress, and cannot legitimately be implemented by executive order, as Mr. Obama is attempting to do.

    “We already have rapid-reporting requirements for multiple firearm sales, for handguns,” Mr. Korwin notes, “and this required Congress to draft and enact a statute, which became federal law 18 U.S.C. §923(g). It’s not legal to create another similar law for long guns without Congress,” Korwin says.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    We have elected the enemy of the U.S. Constitution - the enemy of personal & States Rights now holds the highest orifice in the land - the Commander In Chief of the most powerful military in the history of the world who was never even a Cub Scout. Unreal.

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    Thanks goodness we can still vote. We are going to need every single vote next time around as they are trying to undo that process as well.

    This type of crap to end run the Constitution just encourages me to send another check to the NRA and Buckeye Firearms. Support the gun advocacy group of your choice but support them now. I am also going to write my Representatives. They need to know we count, we vote, and we believe in the Constitution of the United States. Stop treading on it!!!
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    Well, if it were this simple, that it is obviously not authorized, someone will sue the Agency which promulgated the regulations and they will be overturned. Don't hold your breath though, because Agency regulations tend to be examined very carefully for conflicts with existing statutes (and constitution) before they are issued. Uncle is the largest single employer of lawyers in the world. And absolutely nothing gets done in the form of regulations without deep/extensive legal examination within an Agency and often also outside--- at Justice and at OMB.

    Congress authorizes Agencies to take regulatory action because Congress can't get bogged down in the nitty gritty details of every regulation. So, my guess here is that this has been done with full lawful authority and the folks who print the stuff shown in post 1 are just grumbling, uselessly.

    We'll find out soon enough though.

    Our opinions (either way) are not the law. For establishing that, we have Administrative Law Judges and Federal District Court Judges and more. The first time an FFL violates the regulations and a fine, loss of license, or criminal sanction is proposed, we'll find out the answer to the legitimacy issue.

    Till then, we are just all grousing, moaning and groaning, uselessly.
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    November 2012 can come quick enough.
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    There is already a move in Congress to "de-fund" this project. See the email from the NRA (below) I recieved yesterday. We need letters, emails and phone calls to our Representatives to support this measure.


    House Committee Passes Amendment to Defund Illegal Obama Firearm Sales Reporting Requirement

    Today, during consideration of the FY 2012 Commerce, Justice, Science Appropriations bill, pro-gun U.S. Rep. Denny Rehberg (R-Mont.) offered an amendment to prohibit the use of funds for a new and unauthorized multiple sales reporting plan proposed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The Amendment was passed by a vote of 25-16.

    The Rehberg Amendment, which was strongly supported by NRA, will defund the Justice Department’s controversial and illegal move requiring federally licensed firearms retailers in states bordering Mexico to report multiple sales of semi-automatic rifles.
    As we reported yesterday, this procedure was proposed last fall as an “emergency" measure by BATFE. Specifically, it calls for all of the firearm retailers in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas to report multiple sales, or other dispositions, of two or more .22 caliber or larger semi-automatic rifles capable of accepting a detachable magazine purchased by a single individual in a five consecutive business day period. It is important to note that under existing law, BATFE already has full access to every dealer’s firearm transaction records, either during a bona fide criminal investigation or simply to enforce compliance with record keeping requirements. This new reporting procedure would create a registry of owners of many of today's most popular rifles--firearms owned by millions of Americans for self-defense, hunting and other lawful purposes. Most importantly, however, the BATFE has no legal authority to demand these reports.
    In addition, the agency has recently come under intense scrutiny due to its ill-conceived “Fast and Furious” operation. "Fast and Furious" encouraged Arizona gun stores to sell thousands of guns to suspicious buyers, despite objections from dealers and even BATFE’s own field agents.

    Earlier this year, the U.S. House of Representatives voted on and passed, by a vote of 277 to 149, an amendment to H.R. 1 (also offered by Rep. Rehberg, along with Rep. Dan Boren (D-Okla.)) that also would have prohibited the use of federal funds for this reporting requirement. Unfortunately, the amendment was not included in the final version of the bill as a result of Senate inaction.

    In March, U.S. Sens. Jon tester (D-Mont.) and Richard Burr (R-N.C.) introduced S. 570--“to prohibit the Department of Justice from tracking and cataloguing the purchases of multiple rifles and shotguns." The bill would ensure that federal funds cannot be used for the multiple sales reporting procedure.

    NRA will continue to work to make sure the Rehberg Amendment makes it through the appropriations process. The amendment is scheduled to be heard on the House floor in August.

    While the Rehberg Amendment is a critically important first step, it is imperative that you contact your U.S. Senators and ask them to cosponsor and support S. 570. You can find contact information for your elected officials by using the "Write Your Representatives" tool at NRA-ILA ::, or you can call your U.S. senators at (202) 224-3121. S. 570 currently has 29 cosponsors. To see if your senators are cosponsors, please click here: Bill Summary & Status - 112th Congress (2011 - 2012) - S.570 - Cosponsors - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

    This alert is posted at: NRA-ILA :: U.S. House Committee Passes Amendment to Defund Illegal Obama Firearm Sales Reporting Requirement
    "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it".
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    His own administration has been quoted as saying in the Huffington Post " that they are reviewing if the President can change gun laws by executive action ", as well as his promise to Brady and others, that he is trying to push more gun control "under the radar" . Note their use of gun laws... and him changing them, although Congress is the only body who can pass laws or change them.

    One of his Czars is considered and expert on tort and regulatory laws.... and suggests... the he can effectively enact gun control thru regulatory means.

    Seems to me, he's trying .......
    * banning shotgun imports not specifically for sporting purposes (ATF)
    * FFL's reporting mutiple purchases of buyer of rifles that use magazines. (ATF)
    * Banning imports of the M1A carbines from Korea, effectively stopping the flow of guns that are legal to own. (ATF)
    * Gunrunner, etc..... to get the American public excited and convinced more gun control is needed and necessary. (ATF)
    * UN Arms Trade Treaty; which at present would restrict civilian from owning small arms (handguns) and military style guns (AR's, AK"s, Barretts, etc).
    * Trying to get Andrew Traver as head of the ATF.... a man in the ATF from Chicago who is extremely anti-gun and very pro-gun control.

    Congress is countering by :
    * presenting a bill for (1) defunding anything that has to do with operations like Gunrunner.
    * passing a "letter to the President" for Senators to sign to show that the UN treaty has no way of passing by a 2/3 rds vote (at least right now) if it contains anything related to restricting citizens from owning guns. Talk to your Senators to sign it.

    NRA .... addressed the UN Committee on the ARMS Trade Treaty in July , 2011... and stated essentially.... "anything" that restricts or attempts to create a registry of US citizens guns, would be fought with everything the NRA has.

    The battle lines are being drawn, the "chipping" away has started, and we need to support our Congressmen that are 2A supporters and vote out those that are not. Besides getting someone else voted in, in 2012.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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    There is not enough bandwidth to post all which can be said about this current administration. But it is increasingly acting more lawless by the day in all it's behind closed door meetings with unelected, unconfirmed Czars. Meetings, strategies and policy decisions which not only circumvents Congress, but also decisions on the executive branch side, which is ordinarily handled by the Cabinet.

    What we have now is a Commander in Chief which took decades of behind the scenes manipulation to get someone like him at the top position. This nation is sitting on the precipice and a second term will likely make a lot of what has been happening thus far, unrecoverable.

    Our only hope is that like the Japanese awakening the "sleeping giant" in WWII, a significant portion of our fellow countrymen have awaken from sleep when this administration really overreached by ramming Obamacare down our throats. However, unlike the way we responded following Pearl Harbor, our response to this administration has been somewhat sluggish. There is still a lot of division in this country. Still a lot of people who think things are just fine, and also unlike WWII, the entire mainstream media is totally in the tank to the point where they intentionally disseminate the misinformation and flat out lies the administration wants disseminated.

    And while the Tea Party put a lot of conservatives into Congress at the last mid-terms in 2010, the Conservatives are really threatening the existence of Rhino Republicans who are just as whacked out as the left. They are as much about protecting the government machine as the libs. And that brings up a scary proposition in which a spoiler similar to Ross Perot can pop up and split the vote in the 2012 Presidential election.

    We are living in dangerous times right now. Our Republic as founded, is in jeopardy. And we are in the middle of dire times as dangerous and potentially perilous as the Cold War was against the Soviets. It's just confined to within our own borders.

    If the President wins a second term, even darker times are upon us for sure. The only hope we have if he does get a second term will be if Conservatives keep control of the House and takes control of the Senate with enough to make it filibuster proof. But it will be a long hard additional 4 years. And a lot can happen in that time.

    The good news is that the administration is very worried and in panic mode because they know he may not get that second term. Although they will never let you know they are as panicked as they are and the media are happy to carry his water.

    For the time being, Congress, I believe will keep these new gun schemes from being enacted. But they also have their hands full with other issues and trying to come together to hold strong against this debt ceiling stuff, and still be able to gain seats in 2012 and get Obama out at the same time.

    We may lose some of these battles of gun control in the time being. Especially if it is done by circumventing Congress.

    Of course, this is only my opinion... I could be wrong.
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    I wanted to hit the "likes" button for Bark'n post but the content expressed is so true and so alarming that all I could do was shake my head in sad agreement as there is nothing he wrote that is to like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Of course, this is only my opinion... I could be wrong.
    I hope you are. I fear you are not.

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    Old School, they are trying to us and wear us down, buddy. They are counting on us to get so depressed that we give up the fight!

    Their plan is to keep overwhelming us and make us too fatigued to fight back. Their plan is to come at us from all directions to try and get us to believe fighting back is futile.

    To the progressives who are attempting to transform our country it's now or never, because they know if we defeat them, they'll won't get another chance for at least a generation. He even used the phrase he was going to "fundamentally transform this nation" during his campaign. He told us what he was going to do.

    But to keep things on topic, I can practically guarantee more attacks on our ability to use our guns. They are going to use executive order to change definitions in ammo in order to ban certain type of ammo, and a whole lot of other little tricks and chicanery to whittle away at firearm laws to essentially make guns useless. The supreme court has ruled on the second amendment and the right to own guns, and they know they can't possibly confiscate all the guns. But they are going to attack on a different front so that guns become useless.

    Health and Human Services will no doubt come out with some "bogus study" saying that having bulk gunpowder and primers stored on your property causes cancer and bad for your health, so all new prohibitive regulations will follow. How about every person who reloads more than 100 rounds of ammo a year needs to have hazmat certification. Any guess what those credentials will cost a person to maintain? Not to mention the BATF approved explosives storage magazine (bunker). I wonder what those are gonna cost?

    Just like our energy policy. Big O told the coal industry, "oh, you can build as many coal plants as you want, but I'll drive you into bankruptcy with carbon regulation."

    Once you figure out what they are all about, you can figure out how they are going to get us. But how do you get a majority of the country to vote correctly?

    Oh, btw... they are starting a quiet push to drop the "electoral college" requirement in determining the outcome of elections again. That means, only those who live in Chicago, New York, New Jersey, DC, Maryland and California will determine who our president will be.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Old School, Oh, btw... they are starting a quiet push to drop the "electoral college" requirement in determining the outcome of elections again. That means, only those who live in Chicago, New York, New Jersey, DC, Maryland and California will determine who our president will be.
    Come on; that is a pretty "paranoid" filled statement. You do realize it would take a Constitutional Amendment to drop the electoral college. It isn't an option. It can't be done quietly, and probably can't be done, period.

    It may be a good idea to do away with the electoral college and it may also be a good idea to keep it but have the electors selected by state legislators as done originally, but getting rid of it can't happen absent an amendment.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Hopyard, what gave the president the right to fire private company CEO's and have the government steal their company and nationalize the auto industry? This administration does what it pleases regardless of the law, and then sweet talks the dotes to believe they had a right to do it. In the best interest of the country, of course. He has an army of community agitators, (I mean community organizers), lawyers, lobbyists and Czars throughout his administration running roughshod over Congress and people doubt this is a lawless administration? "Laws? We don't need to abide by no stinkin laws!"

    I don't think you can call it paranoia when you are seeing it unfold right before your eyes. All they need is a media blitz lying to the country saying the electoral college is the same as vote fraud and shout down anyone who opposes them and you'll get plenty of kool-aid drinkers vote to pass it. 2/3's? Who knows. At this point, I sure wouldn't bet against it.

    He's on record essentially saying he believes The Constitution is an obstacle because it limits what the government can do to the people. Now there's a man who will look for any way around it, over it, or under it he can find.

    (listen closely at 1:12 into the interview.)


    Sorry if this may appear to be off topic, but I believes it drives right to the core of how the administration feels it can attack our gun laws, create new ammo restrictions and how this rogue Mexican Gun Running fiasco was being done to make it look like all their guns come from a made up fact there are too many uncontrolled guns in the USA. All the time, the ATF was shipping them down to the drug dealers loaded in Conex boxes. They thought they could get away with it, and when an ICE agent got killed by one of the ATF guns, they got caught. And now it's blowing up in their face. This is very much about firearms! It's just the back-story.

    I've said my peace, I'm done with this thread.

    IBTL
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Hopyard, what gave the president the right to fire private company CEO's and have the government steal their company and nationalize the auto industry?
    It is almost impossible to answer without violating forum rules but I will try.

    Bottom line, the companies had options. One was to declare themselves bankrupt, which they were, and go out of business.

    The other was to borrow money from the lender of last resort, Uncle Sam, reorganize, and stay in business.

    Congress appropriated the money and gave the authority to Treasury to do what was done.

    The authority given was somewhat less than what the prior Treasury Secretary had actually asked for. Hank Paulson had asked for almost dictatorial powers and immunity from suit and prosecution for his actions. Congress rejected that.

    Do you not think the people who did the lending had a right to have a say in the management? Your mortgage company tells you things you must do; your car loan has provisions as to what you can and can not do.

    Major stockholders get a say in how a company is run. So too major lenders. Uncle, as the source of money per legislation demanded initially by the prior administration's Treasury Secretary, and granted by Congress, had all of the authority it needed.

    You can get all worked up about what happened, but you are worked up about nothing.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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