Obamas executive order gun grab - Page 3

Obamas executive order gun grab

This is a discussion on Obamas executive order gun grab within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by adric22 You're preaching to the choir. And yes, Costa Rica sounds restrictive, but then compare it to the U.K. or Germany and ...

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  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array alachner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    You're preaching to the choir. And yes, Costa Rica sounds restrictive, but then compare it to the U.K. or Germany and you'll get a different perspective on the matter. I actually wanted to move to Germany (hence my avatar photo) at one point, but the terrible gun control was one of the reasons I decided not to.
    Yes, the restrictions in the UK and Germany are even worse, since it also involves restrictions to knives, batons, pepper sprays, tasers and other non-lethal weapons. I don't know about the UK, but I can attest that life in Germany is very peaceful. Nonetheless, that is mostly due to strict laws, a strong economy and educated society, a strong welfare system, a well-trained and equipped police force and the strong presence of the US Military in the entire country. Nonetheless, I think this is the exception and not the norm.

    I have read that the situation in the UK has gotten worse with Gun Control, but I cannot speak for them since I haven't been there in almost 15 years.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Hey! give me a link.. not to stories about what the man is gonna do... show me that he has done it.
    That's all I ask...

    Sure, I don't trust him, sure, I think he wants to do it... but show me the link to where this executive order is IN PLACE. Not just speculation.

    If this helps any, here is the published list of executive orders:

    Whitehouse executive orders
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The constitution does not hinder my idea of crime control. As a matter of fact, it encourages it. As long as due process is followed, there is no constitutional violation to hanging or executing criminals.

    In our ideations and liberal interpretations of the constitution, we have arrived in the post age of the modern man. Rather than aggressively attack the scourge that has taken over our land, we sit quitely by and allow some limp wristed judges to give their interpretation of the law of the land, which is just their opinion. How is it that we allow a few to speak for the many?

    To own a firearm is in my opinion not just a right, but an obligation of every American citizen. Any law that inhibits this in any way is unconstitutional, and high treason against the people of this country .

    Laws are only as good as those people who are willing to obey it.
    We have seen the failure of prohibition, war on drugs, and other wastes of Goverment time and money. What is there about these past failures that would make anyone think gun laws work?

    It's time to wake up from namby pamby land and get real.
    There are only two sides, with no option of retreat. Figure out what side your on.
    HotGuns, MikeNice, Bark'n and 3 others like this.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #34
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    Glockman...for an old lookin coot, you're my kind of guy. If you ever come across Arkansas, give me a shout. I'll buy you a steak or something...
    Bark'n and tkruf like this.
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  5. #35
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Just for the sake of discussion/argument:

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The constitution does not hinder my idea of crime control. As a matter of fact, it encourages it. As long as due process is followed, there is no constitutional violation to hanging or executing criminals.
    I agree with that 100%, as long as the crime merits the punishment... I'm not executing an underage kid for shoplifting a candybar.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    In our ideations and liberal interpretations of the constitution, we have arrived in the post age of the modern man. Rather than aggressively attack the scourge that has taken over our land, we sit quitely by and allow some limp wristed judges to give their interpretation of the law of the land, which is just their opinion. How is it that we allow a few to speak for the many?
    Through the very Constitution you mention... (And probably swore to uphold at least once in your life) Article III and the 11th Amendment. And remember, it was those "limp-wristed" Judges who gave us Heller and McDonald.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    To own a firearm is in my opinion not just a right, but an obligation of every American citizen. Any law that inhibits this in any way is unconstitutional, and high treason against the people of this country .
    I can agree with that, to a degree, but what about those you want to hang or execute? Assuming the cause for the execution wasn't their first offense, at what point should we limit their "citizenship" rights? Or should they, even if convicted, incarcerated, and subsequently escaped before serving the length of their sentence, be allowed to purchase weapons?

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Laws are only as good as those people who are willing to obey it.

    We have seen the failure of prohibition, war on drugs, and other wastes of Goverment time and money. What is there about these past failures that would make anyone think gun laws work?
    True enough,that...

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    It's time to wake up from namby pamby land and get real.

    There are only two sides, with no option of retreat. Figure out what side your on.
    The world ain't black and white. There's a lot of color and shades of gray in there, too. Yes of course, there is right and there is wrong... But, at the very least; you probably didn't deny the existence of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny to your children, and we all know lying (even by omission) is on the WRONG side of the black and white equation.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #36
    Member Array BubbaDX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I am on the far right side of this thing. I believe all guns should be unrestricted. The law abiding citizen should have the same rights as criminals.

    You want Utopia? The answer is simple to me. Form posses of civillian volunteers to patrol the borders, with clear rules of engagement. Hunt down criminals like dogs and hang them for all to see, on a regular basis. Let the children watch so they can get it clear early on what side they don't want to be on.
    Make it mandatory for all homes to have firearms, and carry legal anywhere anytime.
    I would even go so far as to say a homeowner should be fined if they let a burglar escape without putting some lead in their arse.

    Tell the United Nations to go to hell, because we are a United Nation.
    I'll bet ya it won't take long for this country to get strong and proud again if we did that.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The constitution does not hinder my idea of crime control. As a matter of fact, it encourages it. As long as due process is followed, there is no constitutional violation to hanging or executing criminals.

    In our ideations and liberal interpretations of the constitution, we have arrived in the post age of the modern man. Rather than aggressively attack the scourge that has taken over our land, we sit quitely by and allow some limp wristed judges to give their interpretation of the law of the land, which is just their opinion. How is it that we allow a few to speak for the many?

    To own a firearm is in my opinion not just a right, but an obligation of every American citizen. Any law that inhibits this in any way is unconstitutional, and high treason against the people of this country .

    Laws are only as good as those people who are willing to obey it.
    We have seen the failure of prohibition, war on drugs, and other wastes of Goverment time and money. What is there about these past failures that would make anyone think gun laws work?

    It's time to wake up from namby pamby land and get real.
    There are only two sides, with no option of retreat. Figure out what side your on.
    Best post in this thread. Pick a side and stay there. There's no room for a middle ground in this fight.

  8. #38
    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Through the very Constitution you mention... (And probably swore to uphold at least once in your life) Article III and the 11th Amendment. And remember, it was those "limp-wristed" Judges who gave us Heller and McDonald.
    Just remember, Heller and McDonald were both 5-4 decisions. Which tells me we're only one more Obama justice away from both of those cases having gone the other way.
    Gun control is like pregnancy, there's no such thing as just a little. Registration IS the pre-cursor to confiscation.
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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stubborn View Post
    Just remember, Heller and McDonald were both 5-4 decisions. Which tells me we're only one more Obama justice away from both of those cases having gone the other way.
    Gun control is like pregnancy, there's no such thing as just a little. Registration IS the pre-cursor to confiscation.
    True enough... But now we have stare decis. And, like Roe V. Wade, hard to go backwards.

    And, as you cannot tell me what I'm going to do in the next few minutes... O may or may not go the executive order route. He has not yet, YET, and the rest is only speculation.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    "...the point remains that the criminals were in the gun stores buying them."

    Yes, because when the gun dealers questioned the sale, the BATF ordered them to "go ahead with the sale."
    Their first inclination was to deny those sales!
    Last edited by Hoganbeg; August 3rd, 2011 at 05:54 AM.
    64zebra likes this.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    If any of you don't think Obama is doing things related to gun restrictions, etc.... you've been sleeping. There has been a lot of NEWS related to Obama..... from guaranteeing the Brady Bunch he was trying to get strong gun control "under the radar" (google it) and thru using Executive powers and directives. He has a top "regulatory" Atty in the Country working with him on it. The ATF "Fast & Furious" was admitted by leaks to be an effort to show US guns being in cartel hands and pumping up public support to ban some guns (AR's, etc). The ATF is now being sued by the NRA ... for it's efforts to go beyond it's legal authority to demand shop owners in the SW USA to supply information and report people who do mutiple "legal" buys (2 or more) of guns that can use a magazine, and includes States such as Washington State, etc.

    They have been trying to use the ATF to use "regulations", as well as making NICS more restrictive, or things like the ATF on mutiple guns sales, the ATF banning many imports now on shotguns that are not for "sporting" purposes (they don't have to be, that's beyond the laws), and M1's (although legal to own) to be imported from Korea.

    The UN Arms Trade Treaty, which bans citizens from owning small arms of any type.... which Hillary is pushing the USA be involved in. Sen Moran circulating a protest memo of this that several Republican Senators signed it to show the treaty will NEVER be approved if it continues to have articles which violate the 2nd Amendment. A Dem Congressmen did the same that even some 26 Dem's signed to protest these talks. The NRA addressed the UN, and stated they would fight it with everything they had.

    What part are you thinking that Obama is NOT working behind the scenes on tighter, more restrictive regulations as well as the ability of American's to own certain types of guns, by using executive actions and powers to accomplish it ?

    You either have to be joking, or not paying attention.

    I know some range/gun club here that the members range from from attorneys to Judges, retired AG, etc. and who have been getting directives, checks, and letters from the ATF that every thing they do will be "watched", checked, etc. as pure intimidation. Several ranges , gun clubs and even FFL's have gotten all types of 'comments' as well as letters / directives from the ATF, that are not "legal" and not based on any "laws". They are trying to say they are the regulatory agency and will decide what's needed, how things will be done, and see how far they can push it without getting push back.

    So, go back to sleep if that's where you've been.... but I think we should not take any of these as anything other than what it is, Obama's administration doing everything they can against guns "under the radar".
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  12. #42
    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    I'm not a huge fan of Obama. But lets give credit where credit is due. So far since he has been in office, there has been little to no talk from the whitehouse about gun control that I've seen.

    I will also support any gun control measures that keeps guns out of the hands of criminals (or in this case, drug lords) as long as it doesn't affect the honest citizen from being able to walk into a gun store and buy a gun whenever he/she feels like it. Some people thing I'm a crazy gun fanatic but even I've never bought more than 1 gun in given month. I can't see why it would be a problem to simply fill out a little extra paperwork on the off-chance that I might be buying two or more guns at once.
    Because it puts a chilling effect on the excercise of a naturual right. Owning a gun is not a privilige it is a right granted at birth and supposedly insured by the constitution. The federal government has no right to actively seek to chill the excercise of such a right.

    If they are truly concerned about the cartels there are more effective solutions. The first would be to stop selling hundreds of millions of dollars worth of weapons and training to the Mexican military. It is a known fact that soldiers defect and take their weapons and skills to the cartels. Los Zetas actually started with former Mexican special forces soldiers that decided to get rich protecting cartels.

    The Mexican municipal police also buy millions of dollars worth of American guns and training every year. These same police departments are known to work for the cartels. In many cities the police openly serve as body guards for high ranking cartel members. Yet we continue to sell them ARs and other weapons with the aproval of the state department.

    They could even stop the DOJ from handing guns over to the cartels. That would be too easy and knock the legs out from under their bogus claims about America fueling the cartel's gun lust.

    You signig a paper isn't going to stop a single gun from getting to Mexico. Less than 17% of their guns are "American guns." Of those a vast majority are surplus weapons from government interdictions in South America during the 1980s and 1990s. A bunch of poor and abandoned "freedom fighters" have stock piles that can fetch a nice price in Mexico.

    What is being set up instead is a defacto registration program for certain gun owners. Are you a collector that found a great deal on a couple of surplus AKs that can be combined to make one great gun? Great, now your name is being submitted to the government. Did you buy an AR for each of your twin boys on their birthday? Great, now you are registerred on a government list.

    Do you really want to buy those ARs plus a couple of extra magazines and some ammo when it might result in the ATF knocking on your door next week? What if they don't find you and decide to visit you at work?

    The FBI did that to an "arab looking guy" in Atlanta after 9-11. Some one tipped off he FBI that he was reading about weapons of mass destruction in a coffee shop. He was an American born Jew reading a newspaper article entitled, "Weapons of Mass Distraction." The FBI still showed up at his job and begin questioning him in front of his boss and customers.

    Do you think the ATF would react diferently to an American born Latino that bought two ARs some extra magazines and 200 rounds of ammo at the same time? If some overly cautious store owner reports it will they ignor ir completely?

    Giving away a little freedom is never a good thing. Soon those that intend to govern will want more to "protect" you. After a long while you end up with nothing left worth protecting.

  13. #43
    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    Well, here I'm not sure I can agree. Haven't you read this whole scandal the ATF has been dealing with where they allowed hundreds of guns to be sold to drug lords? Where did these sales happen? At local gun stores.
    Despite the fact that the shop owners called and reported the suspicious activity before the sale in many cases. Many stores were told to allow the purchases even when the gun dealers were begging for reasons to refuse the sale. Some were told to sell even when they felt uncomfortable and were going to just refuse the money.

    The ATF orchestrated it from begining to end and then threw the gun shop owners under the bus. ATF agents that were involved have come out and said as much.

    Simple test of logic. What is the more likely scenario? Mexican cartels are buying large numbers of guns in America or Mexican cartels are buying M2 carbines, RPGs, and black market AKs for pennys on the dollar from Asia?

    Which scenario would make more sense from a business owner's view? I sure wouldn't want to put out the capital and take the risk of being exposed to get a few AR15s from America. It would be simpler and cheaper to buy in bulk from places like North Korea and China and have it smuggled in on container ships. From a business stand point it makes almost no sense to buy semi-autos in America at premium prices.

  14. #44
    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    No, I don't like them. However, judging by his actions and not his words, I'd say he hasn't done much of anything regarding gun control.
    Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:

    Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.

    Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness test Jul 2, 1998

    Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored to limit handgun purchases to one per month (it did not pass).

    Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.148 Oct 30, 2007


    So his justice department gave semi-auto rifles to cartels, lied about the number of semi-auto rifles going to mexico, now they want to register you if you buy the wrong type of semi-auto rifle or more than a couple of them. I wonder where this is headed. He wanted to limit the number of guns a person could buy in a month. His executive order does that. He wanted to ban all semi-auto guns. His executive order doesn't do that but does put a chilling effect on people purchasing them.

    He is very definitely moving towards his stated goal of gun contol under the radar. He is also moving towards many of his pet goals of limiting the number of guns you can buy, eliminating semi-auto guns, and reinstating the AWB. His justice department has decided to ban certain shotguns because they don't serve a "sporting" purpose. The State Department killed the reimportation of thousands of Korean War era M1 Carbines and Garands because they "might be used for illicit purposes." Now they want people to register the fact that they buy multiple semi-auto rifles.

    Nope it doesn't sound like he has done anything to advance his previously stated goals.
    Last edited by MikeNice; August 4th, 2011 at 09:13 AM.

  15. #45
    Member Array MikeNice's Avatar
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    but then compare it to the U.K. or Germany and you'll get a different perspective on the matter.
    If you compare it to the UK you find that Scotland was deemed the "most dangerous developed nation in the world" by the UN. You will find that England has a higher rate of domestic violence, rape, assault, stabbings, and other violent crime than America. You will also find that they still have over 7,000 gun offenses a year. Down from 10,000+ because of a reduction in the number of fake guns used for robbery and threats according to the Home Office. (The Home Office is responsible for England's version of the UCR.) England may have a much lower rate of gun death, but the crime rate is oppresive in many parts of the country and more closely resembles the America of 1980. A pretty bad time in America according to the FBI's Unified Crime Report.

    U.K Is Violent Crime Capital of Europe

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