There is no Reciprocity - Page 5

There is no Reciprocity

This is a discussion on There is no Reciprocity within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I have an Arizona CCW permit, good in about 30 other states and Arizona gladly accepts ALL out of state CCW permits. That's nice but ...

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  1. #61
    Member Array Maybejim's Avatar
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    I have an Arizona CCW permit, good in about 30 other states and Arizona gladly accepts ALL out of state CCW permits.
    That's nice but it's not recognized in Kalifornia, Oregon, or Washington, all places that people go.

    California could do the same with just the stroke of a pen,
    Kalifornia is overrun with nuts, fruit, illegals, and Dem's (but I repeat myself) and that will never happen. Oregon isn't going to do it either.

    but the Sacramento Weenies REFUSE to even grant their own SUBJECTS in a dozen counties the opportunity to apply for a CC permit, or to open carry state wide a loaded handgun. Several east coast states treat their SUBJECTS the same.
    Which is why we need a Federal law and/or lawsuits taken to the SC. The Federal law is much cheaper, faster, and more likely to happen.

    Would I want anti gun politicians like Boxer, Feinstein and Schumer messing with my right to carry a firearm? Hell no!
    And a reciprocity law would not have any effect on that.
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  2. #62
    Member Array Maybejim's Avatar
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    I think I covered this in the post you quoted. I only have a Utah permit... it's all I need.
    That's fine as long as you never go to Nevada, Oregon, or Kalifornia. I have Utah also, along with Idaho (which I don't need but I own a place there so like having an official document with my local address). I also have Oregon (since my place is a mile or so from the Oregon border and most of the local shopping is in Oregon. I also have Kalifornia, and will probably get Arizona (in order to get coverage in Nevada without having to go to Nevada and take a class). But why should anyone have to get 3 or 4 or 5 "licenses" just to be able to travel thoughout the country and maintain their Constitutional Rights?

    opposing national reciprocity is looking out for my states best interest.
    Since it doesn't and won't have any affect on your state's best interest that's a non starter. Of course maybe you are looking at fleecing gun owners all over the country by selling your states carry permit. That's rather selfish (and anti-Constitutional) I would think.
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  3. #63
    VIP Member Array Brass63's Avatar
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    The only hope of ever having the right to cc for Jersey residents, is a federal law or court ruling.
    I understand everyone's fears regarding (possible) federal interference... but this is a Constitutional issue is it not?
    I would guess that nearly everyone on this forum is a 2A supporter... yet when it comes to seeing it applied, suddenly it's every state for itself.
    Are the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights for every American citizen or not?
    (Yea, I know I should just move, but I shouldn't have to. And anyway, to pull up stakes in this economy is the fast track to the soup line.)
    Last edited by Brass63; September 7th, 2011 at 10:48 PM.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass63 View Post
    The only hope of ever having the right to cc for Jersey residents, is a federal law or court ruling.
    I understand everyone's fears regarding (possible) federal interference... but this is a Constitutional issue is it not?
    I would guess that nearly everyone on this forum is a 2A supporter... yet when it comes to seeing it applied, suddenly it's every state for themselves.
    Are the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights for every American citizen or not?
    (Yea, I know I should just move, but I shouldn't have to. And anyway, to pull up stakes in this economy is the fast track to the soup line.)
    Yup, the same complaints from the same complainants, when LEOSA was proposed. But never mind LEOSA.

    What about FOPA? Do the "states rights" folks really want FOPA repealed? After all, that one definitely tells the states exactly what they must allow--- transport through their state provided unloaded and inaccessible or locked. Can you imagine the set back to us all if FOPA was declared invalid on some supposed 10A grounds?

    How come FOPA's good, but a civilian version of LEOSA would be bad? I just don't get it.

    And the state's rights aspect doesn't even really apply. Consider this:

    Requiring national recognition clearly would facilitate the movement of people and goods within interstate commerce. For example, suppose I am in possession of some gold jewelry and diamonds which I wish to take from let's say hypothetically, VA to NY, where I believe the diamonds will command a better price than in Virginia @ NY's Diamond District. As things stand now I am afraid to travel to NY unarmed with 100K worth of jewelry in my possession, and there is no way I can legally travel to NY armed. Hence commerce is inhibited.

    Clearly, there is a valid interstate commerce reason to require states to honor any lawfully issued handgun permit.

    The state's rights issue is bogus, as far as this problem goes. Its just a matter of Congressional will. And guess what, the party that controls The House should push this now. It could well get through The Senate too and get signed. Now might in fact be the best opportunity for years to come. I think it might even be veto proof, although I don't think it would be vetoed prior to an election.

    Holding back on state's rights grounds will just accomplish a big fat nothing--aside from being in my opinion rather silly (polite version of what I really think on the matter.)
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybejim View Post
    That's fine as long as you never go to Nevada, Oregon, or Kalifornia. I have Utah also, along with Idaho (which I don't need but I own a place there so like having an official document with my local address). I also have Oregon (since my place is a mile or so from the Oregon border and most of the local shopping is in Oregon. I also have Kalifornia, and will probably get Arizona (in order to get coverage in Nevada without having to go to Nevada and take a class). But why should anyone have to get 3 or 4 or 5 "licenses" just to be able to travel thoughout the country and maintain their Constitutional Rights?



    Since it doesn't and won't have any affect on your state's best interest that's a non starter. Of course maybe you are looking at fleecing gun owners all over the country by selling your states carry permit. That's rather selfish (and anti-Constitutional) I would think.
    NV, OR, or CA have nothing to offer that I'm willing to buy, so for me that is a non-issue. The money lost to those states is on the said states, not me.

    To the point of needing a few permits to travel, that is a bad thing and I agree with you. My approach differs though, States need grass roots movements. Join your states gun organization and if there isn't one, start one. Organize "Appleseed shoots", NRA safety courses and first time shooters events, there are plenty national and state firearm organizations willing to help if you just ask. When a local news story reports a would be attacker who is shot by a legal gun owner as a "victim", call them on it in responses to papers and find a person to give interviews to media. Write your city, county, state, and federal representatives consistently. Move for change in your state to recognize other states law abiding, tax paying, vacation going citizens! That is the way to effect change, is it easy... hell no, but nothing worth having comes easy.

    Comparing DL's or LEOSA to civilian carry makes no sense, 1~everyone wants to drive a car, 2~ dem's think only LEO's should have guns, so that dog won't hunt in this conversation.

    To your comment that "looking at fleecing gun owners all over the country by selling your states carry permit." I find that offensive! I wish Utah would require in-state training and in-state renewal, that way there wouldn't be so many out-of-stater's getting them and prolonging the time Utahan's have to put up with to get a permit. And if you call $65 a fleecing, I'd like to know what you pay for your state permit.

    Off to work, good day
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  6. #66
    Member Array Maybejim's Avatar
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    NV, OR, or CA have nothing to offer that I'm willing to buy, so for me that is a non-issue
    Well there you go, don't leave your state. I personally like to travel around the country and visit the sights and camp.

    States need grass roots movements.
    Good luck with that. Let's have to do the same thing 50 times instead of once.

    Join your states gun organization
    I am a life member of the CRPA. But I'm also a life member of the NRA because I want this dealt with nationally.

    Comparing DL's or LEOSA to civilian carry makes no sense, 1~everyone wants to drive a car, 2~ dem's think only LEO's should have guns, so that dog won't hunt in this conversation.
    Really??? Dem's (most not all) are idiots who have no respect for the Constitution. I believe in the Constitution and the Second Amendment has been incorporated under the 14th Amendment applying it to the States. The States (and the Fed's) have failed to follow the Consitution. This is nothing more than a baby step to reinstate the Constitution.

    I find that offensive!
    Then you have no logic behind your position.

    I wish Utah would require in-state training and in-state renewal, that way there wouldn't be so many out-of-stater's getting them and prolonging the time Utahan's have to put up with to get a permit.
    Well there you go, the hell with everyone else, let's all just be selfish.

    I'd like to know what you pay for your state permit
    .

    Way too much since no "permit" requirement is Constitutional. But I also pay for Utah, Oregon, and Idaho and soon, Arizona.
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  7. #67
    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Well there you go, don't leave your state. I personally like to travel around the country and visit the sights and camp.
    I love to travel, I just pick my spots. Detroit is great in the winter, I can see a Lions game and Red Wings game on a weekend at least a couple times a year.

    Good luck with that. Let's have to do the same thing 50 times instead of once.
    Excellent attitude! Utah has some of, if not the best gun laws in the country. Yet, we still do all the things I mentioned. You're LAZY.

    I am a life member of the CRPA. But I'm also a life member of the NRA because I want this dealt with nationally.
    Good for you.

    Really??? Dem's (most not all) are idiots who have no respect for the Constitution. I believe in the Constitution and the Second Amendment has been incorporated under the 14th Amendment applying it to the States. The States (and the Fed's) have failed to follow the Consitution. This is nothing more than a baby step to reinstate the Constitution.
    I think you're words here require no response.

    Then you have no logic behind your position.
    I beg to differ.

    Well there you go, the hell with everyone else, let's all just be selfish.
    You got me, I feel that Utahan's should come first in Utah. Our permit fee doesn't cover the cost of our state employee's (5 UTBCI agents that process all state back ground checks, as of 2010) who are also tasked with processing out of state permits for people who wished they could live in a state with balls enough to pass decent gun laws.

    Way too much since no "permit" requirement is Constitutional. But I also pay for Utah, Oregon, and Idaho and soon, Arizona.
    That's what I thought.
    I agree that the constitution allows all of us to carry, so why all this fuss about permits?

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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhinokrk View Post
    You got me, I feel that Utahan's should come first in Utah. Our permit fee doesn't cover the cost of our state employee's (5 UTBCI agents that process all state back ground checks, as of 2010) who are also tasked with processing out of state permits for people who wished they could live in a state with balls enough to pass decent gun laws.

    I think this one completely misses the real issue. Why should anyone anywhere feel they need to get a Utah out of state permit in the first place. They wouldn't need one if their home state permits were recognized nation wide.

    And since you say your fees don't cover Utah's cost, then why should Utah even bother? So let's say one day the Utah legislature decides they don't want this extra cost and bother for their state employees. They decide they won't issue non-resident permits. Immediately a bunch of people lose states in which they might otherwise carry. There could hardly be a more ridiculous arrangement than the one we have now. And it is extra ridiculous because it is fixable and has been fixed already, but for only one segment of the licensed population; LEOs and ex LEOs.

    As the objection to requiring states to honor all lawfully issued permits seems to center on state's rights theories, how about a nay sayer showing me a legal challenge to either FOPA or LEOSA which has prevailed on 10 A principles.
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  9. #69
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    if we had national reciprocity just like a drivers license is valid in all 50 states there could be a law forcing everyone to get a permit from their home state, no more non resident permits needed because your home state permit would be good in every other state.
    unfortunately there are too many states like NY, NJ, IL, CA that would never go for national reciprocity so we are all just spinning our wheels

  10. #70
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    People here remember Gun Control Act of 1968? The Biden Crime Bill (AWB)? Personal guns removed from Military Reservations - (Slick Willie signed that one) Democrats each time had a heavy hand in passing restrictions upon gun owners and one major restriction was gun registration. (California is just one of many states requiring gun registration, a spin off of GCA-68)

    I fear the federal Government tapping into AZ CCW permit data bank, and a national CCW permit reciprocity could open the door to just that.
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  11. #71
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    Amendment 2 is part of const, which last time i looked meant it applied to all US, meaning it is a federal, not state issue. if you truly believe in 2, then having to have a lic from a state violates this to start with. however, seeing that is in place, the only way to resolve reciprocity for all would be at the federal level. else the number of permutations becomes huge (for instance 'compliant' states like ca, ny, ma, nj that require 'compliant' firearms might be reciprocal with each other and not others, etc.). can only be solved from top down if you want 100% US reciprocity. my 2c.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatman View Post
    Amendment 2 is part of const, which last time i looked meant it applied to all US, meaning it is a federal, not state issue. if you truly believe in 2, then having to have a lic from a state violates this to start with. however, seeing that is in place, the only way to resolve reciprocity for all would be at the federal level. else the number of permutations becomes huge (for instance 'compliant' states like ca, ny, ma, nj that require 'compliant' firearms might be reciprocal with each other and not others, etc.). can only be solved from top down if you want 100% US reciprocity. my 2c.
    Unfortunately many states steadfastly refuse to accept second amendment of the Constitution at it's wording, instead relying on their own state provision regulating carrying of weapons, or not having a second amendment provision at all.

    Link to list of all states provisions (or lack of)....


    https://twg2a.wordpress.com/tag/stat...nt-provisions/
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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgbiker View Post
    Unfortunately many states steadfastly refuse to accept second amendment of the Constitution at it's wording, instead relying on their own state provision regulating carrying of weapons, or not having a second amendment provision at all.

    Link to list of all states provisions (or lack of)....


    https://twg2a.wordpress.com/tag/stat...nt-provisions/
    This is really a different issue from the topic being discussed. All the proposed law does is require that states honor any validly issued permit. I think most of the constitutional carry states will issue a license if you want one, and besides, as things stand you need one if you are to travel outside your state to one which recognizes your state's license.

    There's no dipping into state data bases needed to implement what has been proposed. Its real simple. Get stopped, just show the license from your home state, go on your way. No road side argument about whether it is good because the officer couldn't remember which states his state honors and which it doesn't.

    Folks are making this thing more complicated than it need be. And frankly, Congress could act on this and get it passed if the folks there who say they are for gun owners rights really cared and weren't just giving everyone lip service.

    There is almost a guaranteed solid majority for something like this in The House if Boner would bring it to the floor. There are enough Senators from gun friendly states to get it passed in The Senate. The hold out states have at most 20 senators. That's not enough to block something this simple and straight forward. Passed on a truly bi-partisan basis in The Senate, it would get signed I'm convinced.

    What's happening instead is everyone is looking for excuses, and they come here and read what some post, and there you have it. DEAD END.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think this one completely misses the real issue. Why should anyone anywhere feel they need to get a Utah out of state permit in the first place. They wouldn't need one if their home state permits were recognized nation wide.
    What about people in states that don't issue permits: CA, HI, NJ, NY, MD, etc?

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    What about people in states that don't issue permits: CA, HI, NJ, NY, MD, etc?
    These states do issue licenses (reluctantly) so nothing much would change except that folks with those licenses could travel to other states which now won't recognize their licenses. I just noticed something odd. Texas honors NY and NJ licenses but they won't reciprocate. This law would solve that problem.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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