There is no Reciprocity - Page 6

There is no Reciprocity

This is a discussion on There is no Reciprocity within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by rgbiker I fear the federal Government tapping into AZ CCW permit data bank, and a national CCW permit reciprocity could open the ...

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  1. #76
    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rgbiker View Post

    I fear the federal Government tapping into AZ CCW permit data bank, and a national CCW permit reciprocity could open the door to just that.
    Amen, brother!
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    These states do issue licenses (reluctantly) so nothing much would change except that folks with those licenses could travel to other states which now won't recognize their licenses. I just noticed something odd. Texas honors NY and NJ licenses but they won't reciprocate. This law would solve that problem.
    not to get too hung up on this but NJ rarely if ever issues permits to the average guy

  3. #78
    Senior Member Array rhinokrk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    ....All the [B]proposed law[/B] does is require that states honor any validly issued permit.... ....DEAD END.
    Thank you Hopyard, The highlight and underlined part of your post is the reason I posted on this thread in the first place! Federal law is loose and fluid. "proposed" is the bill, but what the "law" could be and how it is perverted can not be stopped once in motion. Again with the LEOSA, the left loves that because Police officers are trained (and work for the Government) so they should have guns..... but we are just crazy hillbilly's wanting to kill people, so we can have bigger penis'. Frustrating that people can't see the big picture!!!!
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  4. #79
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    Federal law is loose and fluid. "proposed" is the bill, but what the "law" could be and how it is perverted can not be stopped once in motion
    The reason that statement makes no sense in the context of this discussion is that the Fed's can do that with or without the reciprocity law. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. Running around whining the Fed's are going to take over everything therefore they should be in nothing is exactly what the Brady Bunch loves to point out as the crazy gun nuts. It is totally without basis to claim that reciprocity has anything to do with anything the Fed's might do. If they want to do it, they will. That's why we have to start taking back the Constitution a little bit at a time, just like it was stolen in the first place. Reciprocity is one little bit that we need.
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  5. #80
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhinokrk View Post
    Thank you Hopyard, The highlight and underlined part of your post is the reason I posted on this thread in the first place! Federal law is loose and fluid. "proposed" is the bill, but what the "law" could be and how it is perverted can not be stopped once in motion. Again with the LEOSA, the left loves that because Police officers are trained (and work for the Government) so they should have guns..... but we are just crazy hillbilly's wanting to kill people, so we can have bigger penis'. Frustrating that people can't see the big picture!!!!



    Most excellent!!!

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  6. #81
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    Get stopped, just show the license from your home state, go on your way. No road side argument about whether it is good because the officer couldn't remember which states his state honors and which it doesn't.
    That's pretty much standard procedure for Officers in my neck of the woods.

    Anyone that gets stopped that has a permit from another state is good to go...meaning that it wont be an issue...unless they are doing something stupid.

    Just because Attorney Generals or Governors haven't got around to make an agreement "official" is no reason to hassle someone over a carry permit.

    As far as I am concerned, ANY permit is good in my jurisdiction. I'll not waste time or effort on it.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    That's pretty much standard procedure for Officers in my neck of the woods.

    Anyone that gets stopped that has a permit from another state is good to go...meaning that it wont be an issue...unless they are doing something stupid.

    Just because Attorney Generals or Governors haven't got around to make an agreement "official" is no reason to hassle someone over a carry permit.

    As far as I am concerned, ANY permit is good in my jurisdiction. I'll not waste time or effort on it.
    Well, that is good in a way, but do realize that in most other parts of the US they are reluctant to leave you alone even when you have a valid license which is supposed to be honored. And, while I think your are correct as a practical matter in that you won't personally bother license holders, are your really saying that you would ignore someone with a license that Arkansas doesn't recognize? Don't you have a job to do defined as enforcing Arkansas law?

    I just checked and Arkansas doesn't recognize licenses from several states. Are your really saying you won't uphold your state's law if you come across someone illegally carrying in Arkansas? I can understand the sentiment, I can understand your good intentions, especially in your rural neck of the woods, but I find it hard to believe the boys in Little Rock would be so casual about things.

    There are 13 state licenses your state does not recognize. That also means that with some exceptions perhaps, were it not for LEOSA your license would not be honored in 13 states. This is unacceptable to any gun owner who travels. It is not a state's rights issue as I have already discussed.

    The situation is just plain silly, easily fixable,
    and the fix is in no way some foot in the door of the tent. Besides as pointed out elsewhere, Uncle has all the power it needs to screw us all around. How about just supporting letting it do something good for a change. You know, sometimes they actually get stuff right.

    Too many posts here play directly into the hands of the anti-gun owners. All they need to do to defeat national reciprocity is point to the discussion here and say that the gun owners themselves can't agree that they want it.

    Well, this gun owner does want it.
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  8. #83
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Well, that is good in a way, but do realize that in most other parts of the US they are reluctant to leave you alone even when you have a valid license which is supposed to be honored. And, while I think your are correct as a practical matter in that you won't personally bother license holders, are your really saying that you would ignore someone with a license that Arkansas doesn't recognize? Don't you have a job to do defined as enforcing Arkansas law?

    I just checked and Arkansas doesn't recognize licenses from several states. Are your really saying you won't uphold your state's law if you come across someone illegally carrying in Arkansas? I can understand the sentiment, I can understand your good intentions, especially in your rural neck of the woods, but I find it hard to believe the boys in Little Rock would be so casual about things.

    There are 13 state licenses your state does not recognize. That also means that with some exceptions perhaps, were it not for LEOSA your license would not be honored in 13 states. This is unacceptable to any gun owner who travels. It is not a state's rights issue as I have already discussed.

    The situation is just plain silly, easily fixable,
    and the fix is in no way some foot in the door of the tent. Besides as pointed out elsewhere, Uncle has all the power it needs to screw us all around. How about just supporting letting it do something good for a change. You know, sometimes they actually get stuff right.

    Too many posts here play directly into the hands of the anti-gun owners. All they need to do to defeat national reciprocity is point to the discussion here and say that the gun owners themselves can't agree that they want it.

    Well, this gun owner does want it.


    1. IMO you ARE WAY OUT OF LINE in the italicized sentence as regards your comments towards "HotGuns".

    2. In bold: You write your letters and make your calls and I'll write and make mine as this gun owner doesn't want it. And the fact that it's "too many posts" opposing your opinion should suggest your premise may need reviewing...
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  9. #84
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    Well, that is good in a way, but do realize that in most other parts of the US they are reluctant to leave you alone even when you have a valid license which is supposed to be honored. And, while I think your are correct as a practical matter in that you won't personally bother license holders, are your really saying that you would ignore someone with a license that Arkansas doesn't recognize?
    Yep. Why bother someone that has a valid permit? I can check the validity of most of them same that I can do with your D.L. The fact that two A.G's or Governors or whoever it is that makes it happen didnt get together to make it official is no reason for me to mess with you.

    Don't you have a job to do defined as enforcing Arkansas law?
    The beauty of it is, that I do it as I see fit. It's called Officer Discretion. As long as I am operating in the confines of the law...it's all good. Our Prosecutors, Judges and even our Police Chiefs, Marshals and Sheriffs have no issues with this...in fact, its standard procedure NOT to mess with someone with a valid liscense whether we have official resiprocity or not. For one, the ASP, which makes the ruling official, only updates their website when they see fit, which is only about twice a year. Secondly, we have been adding states so quickly, that its hard to keep up with. Rather than run the risk of illegally enforcing something that we may not be aware of, we choose not to mess with it. It works out better for everyone that way.

    I just checked and Arkansas doesn't recognize licenses from several states. Are your really saying you won't uphold your state's law if you come across someone illegally carrying in Arkansas? I can understand the sentiment, I can understand your good intentions, especially in your rural neck of the woods, but I find it hard to believe the boys in Little Rock would be so casual about things.
    There is no law that requires me to NOT recognize a license. If I find someone illegally carrying, I will do what I must. I do not, nor does any other cop around here that I know of consider someone with a valid permit to be illegally carrying.

    The boys in Little Rock have standing orders to arrest anyone carrying a gun that does not have a permit. They do that because of the gang problems down there and its the thinking of the command structure that its better to be safe than sorry. Even so, if you have a permit, they dont harasss you about it unless there is some other mitigating circumstance.
    FWIW...I just ate a steak with the Training Officer of the L.R.P.D. and yes...we do talk about such things. His father goes to church with me, so he comes up here quite often. I know his wife and his kids and have been to his house. Small world aint it?

    The situation is just plain silly, easily fixable,
    and the fix is in no way some foot in the door of the tent. Besides as pointed out elsewhere, Uncle has all the power it needs to screw us all around. How about just supporting letting it do something good for a change. You know, sometimes they actually get stuff right.
    Sure they get stuff right. Even a blind hog finds an acorn once in awhile.

    My right to carry to protect my self is not something I am willing to let them get wrong. Oh sure...it may sound too good to be true at first. Social security started out being voluntary. Then it morphed into something that it was not meant to be...why? Because crooked Politicians couldnt stand the fact that there was a large reserve of cash set aside for something else. So the passed a law that made it legal to what essentially amounted to stealing from the S.S. fund.

    It may take 10 years or a generation or two to muck it all up... but I do have total faith in the Government that someone in it would work night and day to figure out a legal way to hose it up, because that is what Politicians do.

    Too many posts here play directly into the hands of the anti-gun owners. All they need to do to defeat national reciprocity is point to the discussion here and say that the gun owners themselves can't agree that they want it.
    Nothing new there. Most gunners are no more than cannon fodder. They watch the news, beleive everything they hear and are content to let someone else do their thinking for them. Its the exact reason that the Brady Bill got passed. The deer hunters didnt like "assault weapons". The target shooters didnt like the hunting weapons. The Yankees up North didnt like anything over .30 caliber because "no one needs it" The western deer hunters didnt like semi- auto rifles because all they ever used were bolt action rifles. The Californians didnt like AK's or anything that shot more than 10 rounds. Its always the same old crap.
    Well, this gun owner does want it.
    This gun owner knows better than to want it.
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  10. #85
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    OK, first part is very informative. It makes some sense that it is best to accept any license than to risk arresting someone who has a valid one because you made a mistake about which state's licenses are recognized.

    Still, I doubt that someone from a state not officially recognized by Arkansas would be truly safe relying on this very informal approach, which as you point out doesn't exactly work in Little Rock. How much better it would be if these issues simply went away because all states had to recognize all validly issued permits. OR if your own state government adopted MO's approach.

    Some of the rest of your post lost me due to the drift off onto the Social Security stuff and general mistrust of government that pops up in your posts from time to time.

    Unlike you I don't fear Uncle and I don't think things are anywhere near as messed up as many believe. Nothing is going to be perfect in a society of 300 million and in Agencies which must provide services for millions. That is for sure. Your own state Agencies and mine are every bit as good at botching things as Uncle is.

    Now, let me explain why this is a big issue for me. I own property in CT. CT will not recognize my Texas license. I could with difficulty get a CT non-resident license but that would be of only limited usefulness.

    To get to my place in CT I have to go through NJ and NYC-NY or route out of my way quite a bit. My carry life would be made much easier if there were national reciprocity.

    As it is now, even if I had a CT non-resident license I'd be facing problems in 3 states along my route. West Virginia, NJ, NY. Maybe I'd be OK in WV, but I know darn well the officers in NJ and NY would not have your attitude that any license is good. NY finds every imaginable excuse to circumvent having to acknowledge FOPA, especially in the NYC region.

    As I wrote earlier, I know someone who is on the road a great deal. He can be in Oregon one day, VA the next, AZ the next, GA the next. It is impossible for him to remain armed even though his job takes him to some dangerous industrial areas and out of the way places.

    We gun owners need real solutions to these real problems. One exists, if The House were serious about gun owner rights.
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  11. #86
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    I agree with ya, Hop...I think it needs to be fixed.
    I just dont want the Feds being involved. As has been stated somewhere else in this thread...what the Feds give, the Feds can take away.

    We have an rabid anti-gun President, with some rabid anti-gun appointees. Even if they did nothing this time around...what if they got reelected and knowing that they couldnt be re elected decided to screw America as best they could before leaving ?

    A right given away...is lost forever. Whether is happens all at once, or it happens in itty bitty step so small that you dont notice, when it's gone it is gone.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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    A right given away...is lost forever. Whether is happens all at once, or it happens in itty bitty step so small that you dont notice, when it's gone it is gone.
    Guess what? We've already lost most of the 2nd Amendment starting in 1934. We're beginning to get some of it back. Reciprocity is one more step if the anti-gunners don't win with the help of some of our brother gun owners.
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  13. #88
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    We've already lost most of the 2nd Amendment starting in 1934.
    I assume that you are talking about the NFA...or National Firearms Act of 1934 that established that certain guns had to be taxed.

    So here we go...
    The Federal Government, decided that certain guns were more evil than others, and since they couldnt outright ban them without causing a considerable amount of backlash, they decided to "tax" them.

    They established a tax over 200 dollars for items that were known to be used by Mobsters. That was sawed off shotguns, sawed off rifles, automatic weapons,and silencers. It also included AOW's, "any other weapons" which were things like pen guns, cane guns, or anything else that shot a cartridge but was disquised to look like something else. At one time, cane guns were actually pretty popular.

    Consider that back in 1934, the dollar was backed by gold and it was actually worth something. In todays value, if the inflationary value of the dollar since then was considered, that 200 bucks back then would be worth around 3300 bucks...not something that most people could or would afford to pay.

    So, although the Federal Government didnt come out and ban them, they essentially taxed them out of existence for all but Mobsters and rich folks.

    Today, the tax is still 200 bucks, and these things are very popluar. The 200 tax isnt quite the hurdle it used to be. Instead of a months or two wages, now its just a matter of wokring half a day of overtime for lots of people.

    But thats not all there is to the story. In order to discourage common usage, you had to be fingerprinted, you had to have the Chief Law Enforcement officer sign it, it had to be registered with the BATF, you had to undergo a long waiting period and eventually you could buy whatever you wanted. Before there was any regulation of these items, suppressors could be had for as little as 15 bucks. When the controls were put in place, the cost of all NFA items shot through the roof.

    Yep...we lost a lot with that one.

    And you want the Feds to take over and tell the states that they have to recognize some others states laws?

    How long do you think it would take for some Politician to say...we must raise taxes or our Government will cease to operate ? Then they form a committee to explore options,and one of them that is owned by someone else not loyal to the U.S. says...hey...why dont we tax gun ownership...sort of like we already do with the NFA act? Of course, they will do it in the name of "public safety" or for the "good of society" or the "greater good" or" for the children" or because of a "national emergency" or any of the other buzzwords that mean we are about to get screwed by the Federal Government.

    No Sir, I want none of it.

    The laws that get passed dont look bad at first sight. They are cleverly written and set up so that most people will "accept" them. If there are any compromises in them at all, they look small and acceptable. They are set up so that a fool thinks its a good thing, while hiding the fact that we are giving up more control, more freedom that we will never get back.

    The Federal Government has an excellent track record of screwing our eyeballs right out of our head while making us smile and laugh about it while we go on working to support them.

    Not me. They might screw me till I bleed, but I aint gonna like it like and I aint gonna smile and pretend it aint happening.
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