Judge Bars Enforcement Of Gun Gag Bill on health care providers - Page 4

Judge Bars Enforcement Of Gun Gag Bill on health care providers

This is a discussion on Judge Bars Enforcement Of Gun Gag Bill on health care providers within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Very polorizing segments of opinions, facts, and views here. This has been a good discussion thread, which is one reason I posted it. My take ...

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Thread: Judge Bars Enforcement Of Gun Gag Bill on health care providers

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Very polorizing segments of opinions, facts, and views here. This has been a good discussion thread, which is one reason I posted it.

    My take (and I see, for the most part I think, everyone's viewpoint on this,) is that doctors have to ask personal questions WRT your health and the reason for you or yours visit (truama care, childs stuffy nose, physical, whatever). As posted earlier, if your visit concerns your hearing and the Doc asks about your trips to the range and hearing protection......it's perfectly within reason.
    Now, if said Doc, the hospital staff, the 'questionair' you fill out each visit, has the 'standard' question "Are there firearms in your home?" (AND this is/are information that'll end up elsewhere......i.e. read:goverment database) then it's WAY outta line.
    This is an attempt to process you into a 'place' regarding you and guns within the 'goverment', to 'mark' you as a gun owner....... and that'll lead to who-knows-where.
    Also, Doc's HAVE to be able to ask children certin questions without the parents there............ MANY children have been removed from abusive homes (even lives SAVED) by Doc's/hospital staff asking these questions and then alerting the cops.
    I understand this (I didn't say I like or dislike it, just that I understand it)....... I also understand the 'other side' of this. Many families have had their lives turned into living hells because of this very line of questioning, then to have the police, child protective services, lawers, etc.'injected' into the mix because "lil' Jane/Johnny" sprained a wrist falling off the swing-set/jungle-gym/bicycle.

    Bottom line here, WRT my feelings/opinion, is that it is WRONG for Doctors to be 'required' to ask ANYONE in your family wether or not there are guns in your house because the 'goverment' tells them they HAVE to ask.....and then REPORT BACK to THEM all answers.

    Mine, yours, ANYONES firearms are your business and NOBODY elses! A fine line between you and your docters trust and your constitional RIGHTS have been crossed.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay


  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Actually, no, doctors don't work for insurance companies. Many doctors today are paid on salary by a healthcare system, or hospital system. Basically, a large non profit organization. Laywers, frivolous lawsuits, and high mal-practice insurance premiums have forced many doctors out of private practice.

    Note too, that patients that actually pay are supporting the patients that don't or can't pay their bills. Every wonder why aspirin costs $10 per pill from a hospital?
    You are correct, they don't actually work directly for the insurance company, they are not on the insurance providers payroll or anything like that. But even doc's that work for healthcare systems recognize that the system does not get paid, thus providing the bucks that pay the docs's, unless the insurance company is paying up. And doc's that are in private practice absolutely recognize that the carriers they accept as payers are the ones that are paying their bills. I had this discussion with my medical staff in 1982, at the end of charge based reimbursement and the beginning of the DRG era, and it has not changed in the almost 30 years since.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Doctors have no business in anyone personal business. Fix what's ailing me and STFU about it, you are getting paid. There is no reason to get into a free man's business.... unless of course you are a socialist and think it is ok. Every American has the right to keep and bear arms and it is not your business or anyone elses to tell them why, when, or how to do so.
    +1... Doctors are people mechanics. If you take your car to a mechanic because the engine is clinking and clanking and forget and leave a suitcase in the trunk, the contents of the suitcase in the trunk are of no concern to the mechanic. His job is to fix the engine and get the car back on the road. PERIOD. Same concept should apply to the Docs.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  4. #49
    Ex Member Array dcselby1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    It interferes with your right to keep and own arms if he is recording his information and then makes that information available to the government. What happend to your right to privacy with your medical records?
    With computerized record-keeping by mecial providers, there IS no more privacey. Hell, you have no privacy at the library anymore!

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array swiftyjuan's Avatar
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    "No doctor, I don't have any firearms." O.K., I lied; let him sue me.
    John
    Assault is a behavior, not a device.

    "Don't never take no shortcuts." Patty Reed, Donner Party

    Lifetime NRA member

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    You are correct, they don't actually work directly for the insurance company, they are not on the insurance providers payroll or anything like that. But even doc's that work for healthcare systems recognize that the system does not get paid, thus providing the bucks that pay the docs's, unless the insurance company is paying up. And doc's that are in private practice absolutely recognize that the carriers they accept as payers are the ones that are paying their bills. I had this discussion with my medical staff in 1982, at the end of charge based reimbursement and the beginning of the DRG era, and it has not changed in the almost 30 years since.
    Healthcare technology has improved tremendously over the last 30 years. The abilities to save lives and treat formerly untreatable or life cripling conditions is impressive. However, the patient experience has declined as well, for the very reasons cited. Insurance companies, plan administrators, and company HR folks dictate the level of care that insured individuals receive. Many doctors won't even recommend or disclose a course of treatment anymore if they know it won't be covered by the patients insurance. Not only are their issues with collecting too much personal information, but there are issues with not disclosing enough information as well. Doctors and patients no longer have a good relationship.
    Tzadik likes this.

  7. #52
    Member Array BurgDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftyjuan View Post
    "No doctor, I don't have any firearms." O.K., I lied; let him sue me.
    Are you going to teach your kid to lie as well when the doctor asks him/her the same question with you out of the room?
    Tzadik likes this.

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I don't remember the State, but ONE Doctor posted at his front door than if any of his patients owned guns, then they needed to seek further healthcare from someone else. He lost more patients than the thought he would.... way more.

    Doctors taking a political stance on a Constitutional Right, will cost them dearly most of the time. Maybe they should have gone into another profession. Their egos, are out of control.

    Mine one day told me what " I was going to do" , and I had to inform him, there is not a person on the face of this world that can tell me what I am GOING TO DO..... only the consequences of doing it. Doctors, may discover the consequences isn't what they thought, and their support not as strong as they think.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    The American Medical Association thinks that they are only organization that can stop the gun violence, and they have been putting their noses where they don't belong under the guise of "practicing medicine". Just Google American Medical Assocition and guns, and read the crap they are trying. I believe that their agenda is to have all guns regulated as dangerous hazards much like prescribed medicines are....by the Food and Drug Administration or a similar governmental agency.
    This is not just about nosy doctors, but a full court press attempt by the anti-gun left.
    Eagleks, Magnum and Stubborn like this.
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  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    You got it Zonk.

    They aren't any different than the person sitting in DC. They know what's best for everyone. No one else is smart enough to know.
    Eagleks likes this.
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  11. #56
    VIP Member Array swiftyjuan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    Are you going to teach your kid to lie as well when the doctor asks him/her the same question with you out of the room?
    My youngest is 26 and she is a correctional officer for the state. She can explain her firearms to him if she so desires; they are at her house.
    John
    Assault is a behavior, not a device.

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  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    ...we do need to punish those who misuse collected information.
    Agreed. I wouldn't abandon the idea of punishment, but we should always be aware of its limited effectiveness and the need for additional measures.

    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog
    Are you going to teach your kid to lie as well when the doctor asks him/her the same question with you out of the room?
    Good point. It's probably better to teach your kid to respond with "You'll have to ask my parents."

    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback
    Also, Doc's HAVE to be able to ask children certin questions without the parents there............ MANY children have been removed from abusive homes (even lives SAVED) by Doc's/hospital staff asking these questions and then alerting the cops.
    I understand the potential benefit of questioning a child without the parents being present, but this same "potential benefit" argument supports allowing CPS to conduct unannounced surprise inspections of family homes. Lives could be saved here, too, as the authorities are able to identify unsafe conditions like a child's possible access to cleaning chemicals and other poisonous substances, open electrical outlets, sharp instruments, uncovered pools, small objects that present a choking hazard, etc., etc., etc... In fact, I'm willing to bet that more children are killed by such accidents than by abusive parents. Nevertheless, the benefits--potential OR realized--do not outweigh my rights.

    My neighbor's concern for my child's welfare is heartwarming, but he does NOT (by way of government or any other means) get to bypass my parental rights; I don't care how many documented cases there are of other parents behaving like scumbags. There are documented cases of gun-toters behaving like scumbags but, again, this has nothing to do with MY carrying.

    Empowering the intrusion of some authoritative body (doctors) often sounds like a good idea because we think it's good that other people's children are protected from other parents. However, before approving this kind of intrusion, you need to say out loud to yourself:
    "This is a good idea because it will protect my own children from me." Now, if that sounds absurd and insulting (and hopefully it does) then you know that this kind of empowerment is probably a BAD IDEA.
    Tzadik likes this.
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  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback
    Also, Doc's HAVE to be able to ask children certin questions without the parents there............ MANY children have been removed from abusive homes (even lives SAVED) by Doc's/hospital staff asking these questions and then alerting the cops.
    This is where there needs to be a distinction between responding to a situation based upon evidence, such as of abuse, and a generalized fishing expedition. The questioning that brought about this legislation was of the latter variety. The medical and insurance industries have already demonstrated the desire and willingness to impose sanctions on those who engage in behaviors or criteria that they think are detrimental. This is another step on that very slippery slope.

  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctr View Post
    Healthcare technology has improved tremendously over the last 30 years. The abilities to save lives and treat formerly untreatable or life cripling conditions is impressive. However, the patient experience has declined as well, for the very reasons cited. Insurance companies, plan administrators, and company HR folks dictate the level of care that insured individuals receive. Many doctors won't even recommend or disclose a course of treatment anymore if they know it won't be covered by the patients insurance. Not only are their issues with collecting too much personal information, but there are issues with not disclosing enough information as well. Doctors and patients no longer have a good relationship.
    So the doctors are already gagged, in effect, and they're worrying about whether I'm going to ask a question about guns?
    Something doesn't add up here.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  15. #60
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgDog View Post
    Are you going to teach your kid to lie as well when the doctor asks him/her the same question with you out of the room?
    Teach your wife to give the same answer? Then what are you, labeled as a liar to the insurance company? I'm sure the actuaries have a formula they plug in for liars too.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

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