H.R. 822, the Trojan Horse gun bill, has reached the House floor.

This is a discussion on H.R. 822, the Trojan Horse gun bill, has reached the House floor. within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by ksholder AZChevy - If the states you noted, or others, do as you say, and I agree some might, then I believe ...

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Thread: H.R. 822, the Trojan Horse gun bill, has reached the House floor.

  1. #16
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    AZChevy - If the states you noted, or others, do as you say, and I agree some might, then I believe you will see the courts apply the 2A, which, through the 14A applies to all the states. This is a slow process, but in the end, the states will probably have to provide some provision for self defense and I think we will see this relatively soon in IL and probably CA now that they have revoked the stupid OC of empty weapons provision.

    This is not a state rights issue versus federal issue. The states do not have the right to infringe on the 2A. Of course, getting them to see that could be expensive and take some time.
    Really? how did that work out for heller v DC? You are dead wrong.

    Again you all fail to realize Supreme Court Decisions have been made already regarding the 2A and concealed carry.... hate to burst your bubble on that one

    District of Columbia v. Heller 2008:

    "Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues ... The majority of the 19th-century courts to consider the question held that prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons were lawful under the Second Amendment or state analogues."
    Robertson vs. Baldwin 1897:

    the right of the people to keep and bear arms (Art. II) is not infringed by laws prohibiting the carrying of concealed weapons;
    So TWO supreme court decisions referenced concealed weapon prohibition is NOT infringing the 2d amendment but you are going to sit here and tell me courts will "apply it via the 2d amendment? "

    I think you are wrong and it can and probably will happen especially in CA and NY

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    Really? how did that work out for heller v DC? You are dead wrong.

    Again you all fail to realize Supreme Court Decisions have been made already regarding the 2A and concealed carry.... hate to burst your bubble on that one

    District of Columbia v. Heller 2008:



    Robertson vs. Baldwin 1897:



    So TWO supreme court decisions referenced concealed weapon prohibition is NOT infringing the 2d amendment but you are going to sit here and tell me courts will "apply it via the 2d amendment? "

    I think you are wrong and it can and probably will happen especially in CA and NY
    I never said they would uphold concealed carry, although they could. What I said was that they would "provide some provision for self defense". Time will tell. In the 19th century, there was a wide-spread disdain for concealed carry. At this point in time, if SCOTUS says that states have to allow for citizens to protect themselves outside the house, many, if not most, would probably go for CC over OC if they have to choose one way. Public perceptions have changed and most in the public simply cannot abide citizens OCing - it offends their sensibilities.

    Heller did not deal with self defense outside of the home anyway. The whole point of Heller was that residents of DC have a right to own and use a gun in self defense without having to unlock, assemble and load it. The Heller, McDonald and Ezell cases have all been put together in an orchestrated fashion to advance gun rights and the right to self defense. This will take several more cases and time, but I believe you will see things move in our direction.

    Robertson did not do away with all carry methods and only parenthetically mentioned concealed carry as being a possible prohibition like certain speech is an exception to the first amendment. Further, nothing in Robertson indicates that the states could not allow concealed carry.
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  4. #18
    Member Array bolocanolo's Avatar
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    Why should we trust the NRA to tell us the truth, when they supported the re-election of Harry Reid and other democrats, which helped the democrats retain control of the Senate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolocanolo View Post
    Why should we trust the NRA to tell us the truth, when they supported the re-election of Harry Reid and other democrats, which helped the democrats retain control of the Senate.
    And he may well help 822 get past The Senate as well.
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    I am new to this forum but not new to ccw I have been carrying for over 12 years now and as far as I can tell this is a good bill it does not mess with your state rights except for making them allow ccw from all other states which will work in our favor. I have a florida non-resident permit and a arkansas permit and this bill will save me some money. with that said I dont see this bill passing and if it does potus wont in my opinion sign it
    prepare for the worst;Hope for the best

  7. #21
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    As Azchevy suggested the more stringent states might revoke all permits.I doubt it because states like NJ and MD probably only issue to politically connected and the rich so I would think they will not stop the current practice. It sure would be great to see the list of permit holders.

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    Tinfoil... on the head.

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    I'm wondering a few things:

    Is it possible that some folks that are thinking it's not a good bill have not really read the thing in it's entirety?
    Is it possible that some folks that are pushing folks like us to run to our Congress person and tell them to vote it down are counting on the rest of us to not do our own, in-depth research?
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    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolocanolo View Post
    Why should we trust the NRA to tell us the truth, when they supported the re-election of Harry Reid and other democrats, which helped the democrats retain control of the Senate.
    I have no problem supporting a Democrat whose views align with my own. You?

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    I was reading the comments below the bills text on open congress, most are supportive of the bill, however one comment I thought might be of interest. I know that many of you believe in the constitution, as do I, one of the posters stated that this bill violated the 10th Amendment, that this is a State issue, and that our support of a "Nationalist decree" such as this HR822 rejects the principles on which Our government was founded. He referred to it as "federalism" , however, I would say that is is "Republicanism" (not the party). Thought it was an interesting point of view, and possibly correct.
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    "Don't start none, won't be none!"

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterX View Post
    I was reading the comments below the bills text on open congress, most are supportive of the bill, however one comment I thought might be of interest. I know that many of you believe in the constitution, as do I, one of the posters stated that this bill violated the 10th Amendment, that this is a State issue, and that our support of a "Nationalist decree" such as this HR822 rejects the principles on which Our government was founded. He referred to it as "federalism" , however, I would say that is is "Republicanism" (not the party). Thought it was an interesting point of view, and possibly correct.
    Well, it would be a 10A violation if the 2A did not apply to the states. Using the logic of the commenter in your post, the states could eschew the Constitution in toto and the feds could do nothing about it. That is not what was agreed to when the Constitution was ratified.
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    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Well, it would be a 10A violation if the 2A did not apply to the states. Using the logic of the commenter in your post, the states could eschew the Constitution in toto and the feds could do nothing about it. That is not what was agreed to when the Constitution was ratified.
    Agreed, just found this point of view interesting.
    "Don't start none, won't be none!"

  14. #28
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    When has the federal government getting involved in anything been for the better? When the federal government gets involved in something their involvement only GROWS over time. Take the income tax...started out at 1%...now look at it. Those of you who are so quick to take the NRA's word for something and jump on the bandwagon must have short memories. Its just silly to me that a site such as this where I would take a guess that we have quite a few SMALL government advocates would suggest it is a good idea for the fed's to get involved in gun rights.

    My .02.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    When has the federal government getting involved in anything been for the better? When the federal government gets involved in something their involvement only GROWS over time. Take the income tax...started out at 1%...now look at it. Those of you who are so quick to take the NRA's word for something and jump on the bandwagon must have short memories. Its just silly to me that a site such as this where I would take a guess that we have quite a few SMALL government advocates would suggest it is a good idea for the fed's to get involved in gun rights.

    My .02.
    Roon - I am a small federal government/states rigthts kind of guy. The problem with this issue is that the 2A clearly restricts what government can do vis-a-vis gun rights, but that has not stopped the states (some of them) from trying to eliminate essentially any right to use a gun to protect your home or yourself when out and about. Washington D.C. & Illinois are great cases in point and it looks like California is drifting back in that direction; there are others as well.

    Given that the people largely have no real ability to make certain states act Constitutionally, when the feds step in to do that, they are simply reminding the states of what they signed up for when they ratified the Constitution or joined the Union. If the feds don't have this power, or exercize it, of what value is the BOR?
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    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  16. #30
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    I will not let "perfect" become the enemy of "good." On balance HR 822 will advance recognition of our right to bear arms elucidated in the second amendment.
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