FYI: H.R. 822 vs H.R. 2900 Gun Owners of America
This is a discussion on FYI: H.R. 822 vs H.R. 2900 Gun Owners of America within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The House of Representatives is expected to take up concealed carry reciprocity legislation tomorrow (Tuesday, Nov. 15). H.R. 822, sponsored by Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL), ...
November 15th, 2011 12:16 PM
FYI: H.R. 822 vs H.R. 2900 Gun Owners of America
The House of Representatives is expected to take up concealed carry reciprocity legislation tomorrow (Tuesday, Nov. 15). H.R. 822, sponsored by Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL), will allow many people who possess a concealed carry permit in one state to carry in other states as well.
While well-intentioned, there are several concerns with this legislation. In an effort to address these issues, Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA) introduced separate legislation (H.R. 2900), which has the support of GOA.
Please read on to learn more about specific problems with H.R. 822 (the bill coming to the floor tomorrow) and the differences between it and H.R. 2900.
And then, it is vitally important for all gun owners to contact their Representatives and urge them to cosponsor H.R. 2900. READ BILL H.R. 2900
ACTION: Urge your Representative to help fix H.R. 822 and to cosponsor the Broun legislation.
Flaw #1: H.R. 822 Destroys Vermont Carry
In Vermont, it has long been the case that law-abiding residents and non-residents alike could carry a concealed firearm, except for use in the commission of a crime. The state, incidentally, also has the distinction of consistently being ranked one of the safest states in the country.
H.R. 822 does not grant reciprocity to residents of Vermont, as the bill requires the presence of a physical permit in order to qualify. The state would be forced to move to a permit system for purposes of reciprocity, in effect being punished for having a system that is “too pro-gun.”
Separate legislation H.R. 2900—supported by GOA and introduced by Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA)—would recognize the right of Vermont residents to carry in other states, requiring only that a picture identification (such as a drivers license) be in possession of the person carrying.
Flaw #2: H.R. 822 Undermines Constitutional Carry
Following the lead of Vermont, several states have taken up the issue of Constitutional Carry—where citizens do not need to obtain government permission before carrying a concealed firearm. Criminals, after all, are not inclined to line up at the sheriff’s office or police department in order to obtain a permit to carry, so such requirements primarily burden the law-abiding segment of society.
In recent years, Alaska, Arizona and Wyoming have passed Constitutional Carry laws based on the Vermont model. Montana passed such a law that covers 98% of the state, and Texas passed a “constitutional carry lite” law that applies to firearms carried in a vehicle.
These states, however, left in place a permitting system specifically for the purposes of reciprocity. And although upwards of 6 million Americans have obtained permits, most gun owners do not get a permit because they don’t like a system that treats their liberty as a privilege granted by the government.
About 98% of the adult American population, therefore, will be left out of the expansion of rights under (H.R. 822) whereas under H.R. 2900, more and more citizens will be covered as Constitutional Carry gains momentum. In this important respect, H.R. 822 pulls the rug out from under state legislatures which are considering Constitutional Carry, while H.R. 2900 does not.
Contact your Representative to send a pre-written message.
Flaw #3: H.R. 822 Does Not Help Many Residents in “May Issue” States
H.R. 822 allows for carry in any state except for Illinois and the state of one’s residence. This will prove to be a major obstacle for gun owners to carry in their home states in many instances.
In many states, a person must be one of the lucky few or well-connected citizens in order to get a carry permit. Simply put, in some areas (i.e., California, Maryland, and Massachusetts), it’s nearly impossible for residents to get a permit.
Residents can get an out-of-state permit, but under H.R. 822 they would be unable to carry in their home state. This, obviously, creates the odd situation of requiring states to recognize the permits of non-state residents, but not recognizing those of state residents who have out-of-state permits.
On the contrary, H.R. 2900 allows recognition in any state that allows concealed carry, thus letting citizens who live in these restrictive “may issue” states to still carry handguns in their home state so long as they hold a valid out-of-state permit.
In the landmark McDonald v. Chicago decision (2010), the Supreme Court held that the Second Amendment is incorporated to the states by the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. H.R. 2900 simply puts “teeth” into that ruling.
Flaw #4: H.R. 822 Takes Expansive View of the Commerce Clause
H.R. 822 relies on an abused and expansive view of the Constitution’s Commerce Clause. The bill states that because firearms “have been shipped in interstate commerce,” the Congress in justified in passing this legislation. That is not the “commerce” the Founder’s envisioned as they sought to remove barriers of interstate trade.
The modern and broad interpretation of the Commerce Clause would, in the words of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas (Gonzales v. Raich), confer on the federal government the power to “regulate virtually anything – [until] the federal Government is no longer one of limited and enumerated powers.”
The Broun bill ensures that citizens enjoy the “full faith and credit” protection that is guaranteed in Article IV of the Constitution.
Respecting the Constitution
Any federal legislation that imposes demands on the states must be scrutinized carefully by the language of the Constitution. At this point, a cynic might correctly point out that Congress passes bills on a weekly basis that go beyond what the Constitution allows. But we must be especially careful, as people who work towards federalism and constitutional government, not to fall into the trap of the end justifying the means.
H.R. 822 would certainly benefit many Americans, although that number represents only a small fraction of all gun owners. But the bill has several deep flaws that could be fixed by Rep. Broun’s legislation.
ACTION: Contact your Representative and ask that he or she urge the leaders of the House to amend H.R. 822 to fix its serious concerns. The pre-written letter also asks your Rep. to cosponsor the Broun legislation.
Last edited by mrreynolds; November 15th, 2011 at 02:23 PM.
November 15th, 2011 02:14 PM
Would you please explain how this destroys constitutional and or Vermont carry? The text of 822 clearly indicates that it applies to anyone carrying a permit or to authorized citizens of states that don't issue permits.
You are correct about it being upon the interstate commerce, however.
November 15th, 2011 02:17 PM
You will have to ask Gun Owners of America it's their information.
Originally Posted by noway2
November 15th, 2011 03:14 PM
Maybe this will help:
False alarms over natíl CCW legislation only help anti-gunners
False alarms over nat
November 16th, 2011 11:20 AM
LEARN something today so you can TEACH something tomorrow.
Dominus Vobiscum <))>( Where is the wisdom that we have lost in knowledge?" T.S. Elliot
November 16th, 2011 03:08 PM
One thing to note is that currently Vermont residents cannot carry out of state because they don't have a permit. Which is fine I'm pro constitutional carry but when your working with other states you have to deal with their rules. I'd rather see Vermont take the Arizona type of carry where you can get an optional permit and then carry out of state. Until/if the whole country gets constitutional carry we're going to run into these kind of issues. However I don't see this as a HR822 issue of really, more of a state law issue. If Vermont wants to participate in this whole 50(49 really) state reciprocity at this point they need some sort of permit even if it's optional.
Just my 2 cents I'd be happy with either bill at this point.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
November 16th, 2011 03:26 PM
Just out of curiosity. Can't people in Vermont just apply for a Florida license or something like that?
Originally Posted by luke213
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato
November 16th, 2011 03:29 PM
Yep but at the moment that doesn't solve a few states that won't accept out of state permits(since I live in Michigan I know we for instance don't), so it's not a perfect solution, and I'm not sure how that will change with HR822 so that's an area I haven't really looked into. Well and keep in mind this is just what I've seen and read on the issue;) I'm by no means an expert by any stretch;)
Originally Posted by adric22
November 16th, 2011 03:30 PM
H.R. 2900 has provisions to correct this although it's not the current Bill being reviewed.
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