"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit - Page 3

"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

This is a discussion on "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by noway2 The first time I traveled to Europe for a business trip a coworker friend told me to remember that I had ...

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 93
Like Tree64Likes

Thread: "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

  1. #31
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,716
    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    The first time I traveled to Europe for a business trip a coworker friend told me to remember that I had NO rights while I was there. An illegal alien by definition, has committed a crime and their rights should be limited to fair an humane treatment while being processed and deported. It should also be made clear to them what will happen to them should they repeat the offense and return, which unfortunately many of them do after being deported. I do agree with Hopyard that due process is required to determine if they are illegal. I also have a hard time envisioning how a legitimate tourist won't generally have some form of processing upon entry. This also reminds me of when I was growing up, we routinely went to Canada for a couple of weeks every year. My mother once asked me a good question, which I was not able to answer. How would you prove that your an American Citizen? At the ripe age of 12, I didn't even have an ID and passports weren't required back then.
    See, that is a great example of how we are screwing up by the numbers. We used to be able to just easily go back and forth, little to no paper. Now you need the new Passport Card. I used to enter Canada and get told on entry that while there I was entitled to the same rights as a Canadian. I don't know what if anything our guys said to Canadians entering here, but probably
    I can't use the words; it wasn't have a great stay in the US.

    We think we can treat everyone else like dirt, but expect to be treated like we think Americans should be when we travel elsewhere.

    And MattinFla got it right. No Agency is as screwed up as CIS. They didn't know what they were doing 40 years ago and it has never improved. They are an embarrassment to us all, but that is another issue for another thread.
    bigmacque likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson


  2. #32
    Member Array RTTR84's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Canadian in America
    Posts
    112
    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    IMO, the only "right" they have is to be picked up and deported back to the country they came from. I know and work with many legal aliens who applied for a immigration permit, waited years for it to be granted and have worked hard become contributing members of this country. To give the same to someone who sneaks in is a slap in the face to those who do it the right way.
    I've been legally in this country from Canada since 1996 and still waiting on my naturalization. It disgusts me when I hear about illegals getting away with what I've gone through great lengths in this country to do the right thing.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    St. Charles, Missouri
    Posts
    2,395
    It is the whole "I live here illegally" thing that denies you rights in my opinion.

    I have a list of right for illegals:
    You have the right to a bag lunch of an apple, a juice box & a baloney sandwich.
    You have the right to contact your embassy to arrange to be picked up where the military will drop you off.
    You have the right to a ride in a helicopter to the nearest international water border to your country of origin.
    You have the right to be forcibly shoved out of the helicopter by a Marine.
    You have the right to wait for your embassy to come get you while avoiding water borne predators.
    You have the right to deal with it on your own.
    You have the right to apply for entry into the US through legal channels.

    Honestly, I feel that if you entered illegally in the past you should never be allowed on US soil again.
    We have the most lenient policy on illegal immigration. Try being caught as an illegal in Mexico, Iran, Pakistan... See what happens.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  4. #34
    Member Array TheGiant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    89
    Should it be easier to legally immigrate to this country? yes.
    Should illegals be shot on site trespassing on private land (well maybe)
    That sure would cut down on the numbers.
    Seriously secure the borders ,deport the illegals, and make it simpler to immigrate to the US.
    sigmanluke likes this.

  5. #35
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,716
    Quote Originally Posted by RTTR84 View Post
    I've been legally in this country from Canada since 1996 and still waiting on my naturalization. It disgusts me when I hear about illegals getting away with what I've gone through great lengths in this country to do the right thing.
    If you came here on a permanent residence visa (green card) you should have been good to go in 3 years if married to a US citizens or 5 years if not married to a US citizen. 14 years is a long haul, and suggests that other issues are involved.

    Immigration and naturalization are separate procedures, and usually naturalization isn't too bad. Not that they don't screw up from time to time.

    Good luck--- and if you feel like it send me a private message as I'd like to hear why its taking 16 years. I have a hunch you started either as an illegal or on a non-immigrant work visa and worked.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,837
    I really love reading some of these threads, as there have been some great opinions expressed here. I'd have to say right up front that I am Conservative and would tend to line up more with those that say they have no rights. The rights we have are the rights of the American people, and if you're not as an American then there has to be some discernment in how things get applied in the event of a breach of the law.

    That's where we start to see people going down divergent paths: how do we apply things. I would not want to be in any other country and be denied due process, fair trials and an opportunity to defend myself in case something happened around me or to me, so I cannot support simply turning off the rights spigot for anyone that is here.

    But this issue seems pretty cut and dried to me: they are here illegally, that is they are not simply visiting to see Disney World and the St Louis Arch, so when it comes to breaking the law all bets are off. If I travel to another country I will enter that country with my passport and thereby legally declare myself an alien in their land who desires to be there and they are happy with my presence. If someone comes here legally, work visa or otherwise, there's a place on the paperwork to declare that they are not a citizen. If that declaration nulls their request for legal posession of a weapon, then they should not have one and we can trust that the proper checks worked. But if they're here illegally in the first place, then there's no way in hell they legally acquired a weapon, and they have no rights under our laws to have it, to be protected for having it, or to make any argument in their favor for posession of a firearm.

    Due process? Of course. But I'd bet the end of that due process will include some time in a jail cell, and an escort to the border ten or so years later. As it should.
    Hopyard likes this.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array DontTreadOnI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,442
    Illegal aliens should be deported immediately. If we allow them to stay then we are not making it any more attractive for on to go through the process of doing it legally and making it more appealing to just to it illegally. This also comes into play with the job market. We have all these people on WallStreet complaining about jobs and most of these people are "the bleeding hearts" that support open border immigration.
    Last edited by DontTreadOnI; December 19th, 2011 at 02:22 PM.
    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

  8. #38
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,716
    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    It does not even have to be a papered society. Not to the extent its being made into. Really, only legal residents should be able to get a drivers license or a state ID. It used to be that was all you needed to go with a checkbook. That's all that should still be needed. If you can't have a state ID, then there are many services that should be denied.

    Even legal immigrants can get a state ID pursuant to their legal status here. It's been that way since I was a kid back in the 80s.
    This business of needing a state ID for everything is NEW. It started with airline security (actually they wanted to protect their
    frequent flyer programs from transfers to others) and it morphed into a security thing. NO ONE needed papers to travel prior. No one needed much of anything.

    Now, here's a part of the problem many are overlooking. People enter this country legally, get their DLs, get other forms of ID, and overstay their visas forever. While everyone focuses on the Southern border, plenty of folks living here illegally have come in through ports of entry but simply never left. That applies to the vast numbers of Eastern European and Irish immigrants, and others, and often these are skilled folks who have no problem getting high tech jobs.

    I have no answers, but I will say this, a papers please society is doomed to lose its freedom. Might as well stick a microchip in everyone and put tracking devices in every store, toll booth, bank, government office. Maybe you want to live like that, but I am here to tell you that will become a totalitarian police state before you realize what has (is) happening to you.

    A DL is a DL. It should be a DL and nothing more; proof that the person in the photo can lawfully drive.

    WE HAVE GIVEN UP TOO MUCH. Or, maybe, too much has been taken from us.
    peckman28 likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  9. #39
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,716
    Quote Originally Posted by DontTreadOnI View Post
    Illegal aliens should be deported immediately. If we allow them to stay then we are not making it any more attractive for on to go through the process of doing it legally and making it more appealing to just to it illegally. This also comes into play with the job market. We have all these people on WallStreet complaining about jobs and most of these people are "the ones" that support open border immigration.
    What does immediately mean? Before a hearing to determine if they are US Citizens or after? If before, everyone is subject to deportation. If after, well then they have rights. Right to a hearing, right to counsel, right to question witnesses.

    Again, our wise writers of our constitution deliberately used the word "persons" and not "citizens" when the wrote the constitution and the Bill of Rights. It is obvious they made a distinction as they specified citizenship in certain parts, and persons in certain other parts.

    Again, I've traveled around the globe and no one ever asked for papers once I entered and passed through the passport checkpoint. If we demand a papers please society it will backfire on our children and grandchildren here in the US, and elsewhere when the travel outside the US.

    What we do to others they will do to us. Remember that.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  10. #40
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,716
    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses View Post
    I have to say that as much as a liberal that I am, I fall pretty much off the conservative cliff concerning this issue.

    I believe that you need to show "papers" before you can receive any entitlements such as welfare, Medicaid, etc or be able to enroll those children in public school.

    Sure, they are a intricate part of some economies, and sure they are people in our country and should deserve a level of American decency and I agree with that 100%. But I also see it more as a exploitation of cheap and illegal labor and they are mudding the waters of those Americans that can really benefit from the services this nation provides via our tax dollars.

    I don't believe that there is one person on this forum that would object in helping out a American family in need that really needs it......and I do believe that everyone here "would" object to just blatantly throwing money to whoever has their hand out....being legal OR illegal.

    I fall in this camp.
    Not so, the part in bold. I know illegal alien children are allowed to attend school and ER care isn't contingent on papers.

    Congress long ago made the decision that it should be this way out of humanitarian concerns.

    On this mess, there are no easy answers, but denying rights and requiring even US citizens to carry papers of one sort or another is a feel good solution that will feel awful.

    In reading news about the unrelated voting law changes many states have made to require ID before you can vote, it is often pointed out that an estimated 10-12% of people eligible to vote lack any and all papers. Life is messy. Folks grow up in
    his, hers, and our(s) homes, get shifted through foster facilities and adoption services, basic papers disappear. Computers crash, paper records burn. Even court houses holding these things get robbed or vandalized.

    Be careful what you wish for folks.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #41
    VIP Member
    Array ksholder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    3,977
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Again, our wise writers of our constitution deliberately used the word "persons" and not "citizens" when the wrote the constitution and the Bill of Rights. It is obvious they made a distinction as they specified citizenship in certain parts, and persons in certain other parts.
    True enough, but I doubt that they intended to convey all those rights on criminal aliens. The right to sort out the issue (trial) to be sure that you are giving out the right punishment, sure, but the other rights - I don't think so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Again, I've traveled around the globe and no one ever asked for papers once I entered and passed through the passport checkpoint. If we demand a papers please society it will backfire on our children and grandchildren here in the US, and elsewhere when the travel outside the US.
    I have been asked for papers in several countries. Italy - the cops stand on the side of the road with little red and white popsicle sticks and randomly pull drivers over for document checks. You don't have to be doing anything wrong, and, if you aren't, you are soon on your way, but they do check. Russia, I have had my papers checked. Many countries have hotels hold and check your passport with the constabulary when you check in - Russia, England used to do this, they did not on my last trip in September, Italy, Spain, Scotland, Germany, Austria, etc.

    I am not sure how you have not had your documents checked when traveling in foreign territory. I don't find it offensive, but it is a regular occurrence.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  12. #42
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,837
    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses View Post
    If you take your birth certificate, SS card, and all the other required documents you will get a gold star on your new license and you wont have to show any of that stuff again.
    Ah, a smart-aleck. We need more smart-alecks here.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  13. #43
    Member Array gunsnroses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    America
    Posts
    422
    That wasent smart aleck Dennis......that was some good info

    Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Orlando, Florida
    Posts
    3,677
    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses View Post
    If you take your birth certificate, SS card, and all the other required documents you will get a gold star on your new license and you wont have to show any of that stuff again.
    I should not EVER have to show all this crap to obtain a drivers license from the Country in which I was born any more than I should have to learn Spanish so I can communicate properly with those too lazy to learn English that come here and look at me like the dumb XXX because I don't speak-a-their lingo.

    I don't want a gold star....I just want to be left alone, and have the government quit making me pay for problems I did not create. Close the damned borders!!
    DontTreadOnI likes this.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  15. #45
    Distinguished Member Array DontTreadOnI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,442
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    What does immediately mean? Before a hearing to determine if they are US Citizens or after? If before, everyone is subject to deportation. If after, well then they have rights. Right to a hearing, right to counsel, right to question witnesses.

    Again, our wise writers of our constitution deliberately used the word "persons" and not "citizens" when the wrote the constitution and the Bill of Rights. It is obvious they made a distinction as they specified citizenship in certain parts, and persons in certain other parts.

    Again, I've traveled around the globe and no one ever asked for papers once I entered and passed through the passport checkpoint. If we demand a papers please society it will backfire on our children and grandchildren here in the US, and elsewhere when the travel outside the US.

    What we do to others they will do to us. Remember that.
    Sigh....Immediately means immediately when it is known that they are not a citizen of the United States of America. No I did not mean that we should just shovel everyone out that we think is illegal, but you knew that.

    Congratulations for traveling all over the globe, I'll bet that's nice. Other countries asking for papers is the least of my worries when MY country is being overrun and infiltrated by thousands annually who chose to ignore the system we have set in place. Speaking of just Mexico alone there are also drug and gang issues that come into play.
    zonker1986 likes this.
    If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

8th circuit appeals illegal guns
,
can a illegal alien carry a gun
,
can a illegal citizen with us green card own a gun
,
can an illegal immigrant carry a gun
,
can illegal immigrants carry weapons
,
concealed carry
,
how many illeagle alliens have guns
,
how many illegal aliems carry weapons?
,
illegal aliens right to carry arms
,
illegal immigrants carrying handguns illegally
,
illegal immigrants have the right to carry guns
,

illegal loses appeal for gun rights

Click on a term to search for related topics.