"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

This is a discussion on "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This topic, especially the do unto others part, reminds me of a true story. A friend of mine runs his own business as an Engineering ...

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Thread: "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    This topic, especially the do unto others part, reminds me of a true story.

    A friend of mine runs his own business as an Engineering consultant. He once went to Canada for a small repair job on some industrial controls. He flew up there, in his own small plane which he used at that time. He arrived at customs and they asked about the tools he brought. He said 'yes, I am here to work for XYZ company.'. Next thing he knew, he was in cuffs and a jail cell. What happened was that the company that hired him didn't process his work visa properly. Thankfully, they paid his bail and got his papers corrected. He did the job and left, very angry and didn't go back to Canada for 20 years and says he will never go back to Quebec.

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  3. #47
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    We are ALREADY stuck with a "papers please" society and we were afflicted with it, long before 9-11.

    I don't resent is that *I* have to show my ID to use my credit card for a $12 purchase at the drug store, but my <b>VOTE</b> can
    be stolen because ID is NOT required on election day.

    I resent that while I am obeying by law to have my Drivers License, registration, and proof of insurance, illegal aliens with none of those
    are routinely released by police after traffic violations, accidents, or serious crimes.

    So, IMO, no, illegal alien invaders who have no legal right to stand on US soil, and have broken countless laws to be here,
    possibly work (with a stolen SS number), and utilize our over-generous welfare system, have no right to keep and bear arms.

    We are not "mean" or "racist" to expect our laws to be obeyed by visitors to the US.

    Thousands of people around the world wait for years for permission to come to the US, many speak English, and have professional skills, but sub-literate criminals have the sympathy in sanctuary cities.

    Is it that we just need new and improved slaves, conditioned to the lash and ready for exploitation?

    Everybody for neo-slavery vote yes!

  4. #48
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    Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? Prove I am an illegal imigrant (or show reasonable cause that I'm not) before insisting I need to provide proof.
    zonker1986, peckman28 and Hopyard like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
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  5. #49
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    Our 2A Constitutional right is not, nor has it ever been, set in stone. Even US citizens are subject to loss of their Constitutional right to keep and bear arms since convicted felons and those judged mentally incompetent can be denied firearms. Add to that the fact that you cannot own an illegal weapon, a sawed off shotgun for example, and claim that the 2A protects your right to own it. Of course there are certain applications that would make it legal, like the proper federal license, but you can't simply build an automatic weapon and claim protection under 2A.

    The rights that afford basic legal protections have primarily always been applied without regard to nationality or immigration status. Our right to keep and bear arms has not. It's been ruled on the state level in other cases that illegal aliens are not protected under the Second Amendment the way they are protected under the First, Fifth, Sixth etc. To which I agree, they should not be protected since they are breaking federal law by just being here.

    As to the right to vote. The Constitution and it's amendments don't actually explicitly address the right to vote as a whole. There are inclusions to prohibit denial of that right based on age, race and sex, but it's not ever explicitly spelled out like our right to free speech or our right to bear arms.

  6. #50
    Member Array gunsnroses's Avatar
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    I believe that there was a time when women or blacks where not permitted to vote either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    This topic, especially the do unto others part, reminds me of a true story.

    A friend of mine runs his own business as an Engineering consultant. He once went to Canada for a small repair job on some industrial controls. He flew up there, in his own small plane which he used at that time. He arrived at customs and they asked about the tools he brought. He said 'yes, I am here to work for XYZ company.'. Next thing he knew, he was in cuffs and a jail cell. What happened was that the company that hired him didn't process his work visa properly. Thankfully, they paid his bail and got his papers corrected. He did the job and left, very angry and didn't go back to Canada for 20 years and says he will never go back to Quebec.

    Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
    Interesting, because I once had a job offer in Ontario. I was totally ignorant of procedures, and at that time no special papers were needed to get back in the US. Just an old fashioned non-secure DL which maybe didn't even have a picture on it.

    I crossed the bridge at Detroit and when I was asked what I was going to do there I answered that I had a job offer.

    In ten minutes I had a 1 year work permit in my hands. No muss, no fuss, no handcuffs, no trouble. The only thing they got a bit bent about, but not at the border, was a mattress that came in on a moving van.

    I think maybe your friend isn't telling the truth. Stories like that are like some of the brandishing to stop a non-event we occasionally have here.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #52
    Member Array gunsnroses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Not so, the part in bold. I know illegal alien children are allowed to attend school and ER care isn't contingent on papers.
    Regardless. These people are not entitled to tax payer education. ER care is one of the many reasons why health insurance is so high.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Congress long ago made the decision that it should be this way out of humanitarian concerns.
    Times have changed since "long ago." They break into the country and then want you to care for them. I say...LET THERE OWN G_D D_M country care for them. I don't believe in "anchor baby's" either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    On this mess, there are no easy answers, but denying rights and requiring even US citizens to carry papers of one sort or another is a feel good solution that will feel awful.
    Why? Dont we carry some sort of ID with us everyday? Isn't that a form of "papers?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    In reading news about the unrelated voting law changes many states have made to require ID before you can vote, it is often pointed out that an estimated 10-12% of people eligible to vote lack any and all papers. Life is messy. Folks grow up in his, hers, and our(s) homes, get shifted through foster facilities and adoption services, basic papers disappear. Computers crash, paper records burn. Even court houses holding these things get robbed or vandalized.

    Be careful what you wish for folks.
    Its called a "voter ID card." It doesn't cost any money and is provided to you free of charge from that county's "board of elections." It has nothing to do with citizenship but everything to do with voting in your own precinct.

    I have one that has my info on it with my polling place and says Democrat.

    :-)

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think maybe your friend isn't telling the truth. Stories like that are like some of the brandishing to stop a non-event we occasionally have here.
    Knowing him, I doubt he is outright lying, embellishing maybe, but not lying. I would bet that he offended them somehow. Probably his 'CT raisins' shining through. He and I were once in Toccoa, GA. We stopped at a gas station on our way out of town. He went in before I did to get coffee. I went in and had a pleasant experience and a nice, but short, conversation with the cashier. He was told that "his kind wasn't welcome there"

    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses
    These people are not entitled to tax payer education. ER care is one of the many reasons why health insurance is so high. Times have changed since "long ago." They break into the country and then want you to care for them. I say...LET THERE OWN G_D D_M country care for them. I don't believe in "anchor baby's" either.
    Concur absolutely. I might make an possible exception for truly critical, emergency (thinking trauma) care, which if not immediate, they would die, but then I would hope that any country you visit would do the same (for you) and worry about paying for it later.

    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses
    Its called a "voter ID card." It doesn't cost any money and is provided to you free of charge from that county's "board of elections." It has nothing to do with citizenship but everything to do with voting in your own precinct.
    I have no problem with proving your identity to vote either. I suspect those that do are really trying to cover up the fact that they are using it for fraud. Didn't Stalin once say something to the effect of: "It's enough for the people to know that there was an election and it matters not what the vote is as he who counts the vote determines everything"?

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Concur absolutely. I might make an possible exception for truly critical, emergency (thinking trauma) care, which if not immediate, they would die, but then I would hope that any country you visit would do the same (for you) and worry about paying for it later.
    +1 Absolutely

    Human life is a separate topic. But I know (because I have read and also have heard) that some say "let them die." I disagree with that,

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    We are ALREADY stuck with a "papers please" society and we were afflicted with it, long before 9-11.
    If long before 9-11 you mean the mid 1990s requirement for boarding a plane, then perhaps you are right. I can assure you that as recently as 1996 my mother had no papers except for a library card. You did need an SS number for IRS and banking, but that was specifically not to be used for ID-- not that anyone paid attention to what was written on the document.

    I don't resent is that *I* have to show my ID to use my credit card for a $12 purchase at the drug store,
    You don't. That is usually a merchant violation of their agreement with the card issuer. I know, because I often do go to the card
    issuer's web site and file an online complaint about merchants who request ID in violation of their agreement. Go to the Master Card web site and rummage around in the section on merchant violations.

    but my <b>VOTE</b> can
    be stolen because ID is NOT required on election day.
    Your vote isn't stolen if someone else commits fraud, but there is little documentation of voter fraud anyway-- it is an exaggerated problem.

    Voter registration procedures have worked quite well for many decades, and proposed changes are about skewing election
    results.


    I resent that while I am obeying by law to have my Drivers License, registration, and proof of insurance,
    Well that pertains to driving. I don't mind having a DL and proof of registration or insurance when I am driving. I resent needing a DL for any purpose beyond what it was invented for-- a license to drive.


    illegal aliens with none of those
    are routinely released by police after traffic violations, accidents, or serious crimes.
    Well no DL, no insurance, no registration, they should be arrested when they break at the rules of the road. And like everyone else, given an opportunity to produce the papers or be fined.

    So, IMO, no, illegal alien invaders who have no legal right to stand on US soil, and have broken countless laws to be here,
    possibly work (with a stolen SS number), and utilize our over-generous welfare system, have no right to keep and bear arms.
    Ya think the good migrants in Spanish Texas should have been prohibited from carrying? You know, fine upstanding folk like Crockettt?

    We are not "mean" or "racist" to expect our laws to be obeyed by visitors to the US.
    By itself you are correct. However the BOR does (for the originalists at least) rather clearly use the word "persons" and not
    citizens or any other qualifier.

    Thousands of people around the world wait for years for permission to come to the US, many speak English, and have professional skills, but sub-literate criminals have the sympathy in sanctuary cities.

    Is it that we just need new and improved slaves, conditioned to the lash and ready for exploitation?

    Everybody for neo-slavery vote yes!
    It often appears that way, but the solution is not in bogging all of us down in a web of paper carrying rules. The solution is to hang a few of the large and not so large employers who make this part of their business model. Of course, then they'll send their jobs overseas so nothing much gained for we living here.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses View Post
    I believe that there was a time when women or blacks where not permitted to vote either.
    It happen still today. There is a town about 45 miles south of where I am that had quite a to do over systematic exclusion of people from voting. And that was a few years ago tops.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Edited/removed
    Not worth my time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    True enough, but I doubt that they intended to convey all those rights on criminal aliens. The right to sort out the issue (trial) to be sure that you are giving out the right punishment, sure, but the other rights - I don't think so.
    How do you say no to a right until someone has been proven to have done wrong? If we took that position no one would be safe.

    I have been asked for papers in several countries. Italy - the cops stand on the side of the road with little red and white popsicle sticks and randomly pull drivers over for document checks. You don't have to be doing anything wrong, and, if you aren't, you are soon on your way, but they do check. Russia, I have had my papers checked. Many countries have hotels hold and check your passport with the constabulary when you check in - Russia, England used to do this, they did not on my last trip in September, Italy, Spain, Scotland, Germany, Austria, etc.
    The hotels do check for passports, but so too ours now. You can't usually check into a hotel without ID. THat was I think part of the Patriot Act; a bad part.

    [quote[ I am not sure how you have not had your documents checked when traveling in foreign territory. I don't find it offensive, but it is a regular occurrence.[/QUOTE]

    Other than at check in at a hotel, never. I've lived with relatives too.

    I've not been to Italy so I don't know how they do things. What I want to know is do you think we should have a society in which
    the sort of random paper check you say the Italians do is OUR norm? I don't.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Member Array gunsnroses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It happen still today. There is a town about 45 miles south of where I am that had quite a to do over systematic exclusion of people from voting. And that was a few years ago tops.
    I understand. We had the same thing happen here in Florida in 2000. :-)

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    The Right to keep and bear arms. I bet in their native land they couldn't own any guns other than maybe a hunting rifle. That right alone should make all illegals motivated to get their American citizenship. Unfortunately illegal firearms are as easy to get as other illegal goods and services.

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