"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

This is a discussion on "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by armado The Right to keep and bear arms. I bet in their native land they couldn't own any guns other than maybe ...

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Thread: "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

  1. #61
    Member Array RTTR84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by armado View Post
    The Right to keep and bear arms. I bet in their native land they couldn't own any guns other than maybe a hunting rifle. That right alone should make all illegals motivated to get their American citizenship. Unfortunately illegal firearms are as easy to get as other illegal goods and services.
    Maybe if America can keep that right though.

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  3. #62
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    The other concern we gun owners have to respect is that more and more illegal's illegally owning guns will simply add more and more fuel to the anti-'s fire.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    How do you say no to a right until someone has been proven to have done wrong? If we took that position no one would be safe.
    Well, the Constitution puts the obligation to secure the borders on the Feds. If they were doing that, we would not have hordes of criminal aliens in our borders. There would be a few, sure, but not millions and millions. The revocation of rights and privledges upon criminals has been settled law for decades. It really does not matter why they are criminals, if they are criminals, they should not have the rights and privledges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The hotels do check for passports, but so too ours now. You can't usually check into a hotel without ID. THat was I think part of the Patriot Act; a bad part.
    I can argue the good and bad parts of this. We admit that once someone is in our borders, they have free run and if they don't leave we can't find them. Well, if we did as most other countries did and actually copy the passport and run it by the cops, we could catch some of these people. Do I find that to be the ideal way, no, I don't, but it is what other countries are doing to you and I when we travel there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Other than at check in at a hotel, never. I've lived with relatives too.
    OK, but the hotel document check is more than just hotel personnel looking at your passport. In many countries that Americans travel to, the cops or other government officials receive a copy of your passport to use in checking your whereabouts and right to be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I've not been to Italy so I don't know how they do things. What I want to know is do you think we should have a society in which
    the sort of random paper check you say the Italians do is OUR norm? I don't.
    No, the Constitution protects us from these intrusions of government into our lives. My initial point was to point out that when we travel to other countries, we are subject to these types of searches that are not legal here.

    That having been said, IIRC in most of the laws that the WH is suing over, the trigger event to look at documents is an interface with government functionaries for some reason or another - traffic stop, registering for school, etc. These are things that indicate the person was either demonstrably not obeying the law or wants to use taxpayer resources. If I do these things, I have to provide my DL and CCW for a traffic stop or proof of residence to register a kid for school. Why should a criminal alien be exempt from such a requirement? If they are determined to be here illegally, why should they benefit from the taxpayers and not just be sent packing?
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Well, the Constitution puts the obligation to secure the borders on the Feds. If they were doing that, we would not have hordes of criminal aliens in our borders.
    Well, the Feds DO secure the borders at every lawful entry point--- but visa overstays are a huge problem. Anyone almost can enter as a tourist with a 90 day visa; and if they are clever and want to beat the system, never leave. A large part of our illegal problem comes from folks who play that game. It is a big deal, and comparable to the Mexican stuff except it isn't visible when they are Canadians, Australians, English, Irish, Russian, German and look like everyone else.

    There would be a few, sure, but not millions and millions. The revocation of rights and privledges upon criminals has been settled law for decades. It really does not matter why they are criminals, if they are criminals, they should not have the rights and privledges.
    Responding to the bold part-- absolutely, but you need a procedure for establishing that someone is a criminal. Right now all we can think of to do is make everyone walk around with papers. Harking to your Italian experience (I need to ask my son about that since he spent several weeks in Italy) and to your other example, RUSSIA-- do we really want to emulate what the
    Russians do? We used to make fun of them and other European countries. We used to make fun of the French where at one time, maybe today, men were carrying around purses for all the documents folks had to have on them. I don't want to go there.

    Truthfully, if we have to go there, I'd rather a microchip and a tattoo. Yuck!!! Let's not make the worst of Europe our model.

    I can argue the good and bad parts of this. We admit that once someone is in our borders, they have free run and if they don't leave we can't find them. Well, if we did as most other countries did and actually copy the passport and run it by the cops, we could catch some of these people. Do I find that to be the ideal way, no, I don't, but it is what other countries are doing to you and I when we travel there.
    Well, we've visited different places. Again, Do we really want to emulate the worst of old totalitarian European practices to solve a problem we could handle with some more intelligence and creativity and PUNISHMENT for folks who get caught?

    OK, but the hotel document check is more than just hotel personnel looking at your passport. In many countries that Americans travel to, the cops or other government officials receive a copy of your passport to use in checking your whereabouts and right to be there.
    Warning-- Broken Record Do we really want to emulate the worst of the totalitarian practices of old Europe?


    No, the Constitution protects us from these intrusions of government into our lives. My initial point was to point out that when we travel to other countries, we are subject to these types of searches that are not legal here.
    Sure, in Russia. Do you want that to be your example?

    That having been said, IIRC in most of the laws that the WH is suing over, the trigger event to look at documents is an interface with government functionaries for some reason or another - traffic stop, registering for school, etc. These are things that indicate the person was either demonstrably not obeying the law or wants to use taxpayer resources. If I do these things, I have to provide my DL and CCW for a traffic stop or proof of residence to register a kid for school. Why should a criminal alien be exempt from such a requirement? If they are determined to be here illegally, why should they benefit from the taxpayers and not just be sent packing?
    The part in bold is where we really differ. A DL is about driving. It should not be about identity and nationality and citizenship.

    If you want everyone to have a passport card, or a visa on their persons at all times, we might have something to discuss. But, our politicians know that framed that way the extreme right and the left would raise h.

    One more time. My mother was born here in 1911. Until 1996 she never ever had any form of government issued ID more
    secure than a Phoenix library card. We (all the readers here) need to think of the implications of losing our freedom when pronouncing blessings upon a "papers please" society.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Well, the Feds DO secure the borders at every lawful entry point--- but visa overstays are a huge problem. Anyone almost can enter as a tourist with a 90 day visa; and if they are clever and want to beat the system, never leave. A large part of our illegal problem comes from folks who play that game. It is a big deal, and comparable to the Mexican stuff except it isn't visible when they are Canadians, Australians, English, Irish, Russian, German and look like everyone else.
    I'd be interested to see any factual data you have to support all of your claims since Mexico is responsible for almost 30% of all documented nonimmigrant admissions into this country and is the only country to attain double digit percentages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    Too many people are trying to give people who broke the law to be here any rights. Outside of letting them talk, and not letting people kill them for no legitimate reason are all the rights they should get.

    Illegal aliens should not have any voting rights, should not qualify for any aid, they should not be able to get any form of legal ID, and they should be deported if found here illegally. In most cases at any rate. We all know there are limited circumstances that deserve recognition, but that is not the focus of this thread.

    Most illegal immigrants deserve to be deported. Permanently.

    Allowing them any rights, outside of the basic rights of showing human compassion, makes a mockery of what my Great-Grandparents went through to come here legally. They came here with nothing outside of a suitcase full of clothes from what was Czechoslovakia at the time. They had no money, and the only skills they had were the ones they learned from their days working the farms in the Old Country.

    Yet, they came here, and became proud Americans. They did not thumb their noses at the laws, they did not ask for anything outside of the opportunity to earn their own way in this life. Which is what they did.




    ^^^^^^^^^AND^^^^^^I'll Betcha'^^^^^^^^^^^^


    They didn't expect the USofA to assimilate and transform itself into the country/government they were fleeing from, or expect it to lower its flag, and raise their, or demand/expect the USofA to change into a multi-lingual country, so they could stay lazy and continue to speak their native tongue.


    I can't take anymore of this crap from these ingrate moochers.
    I say put a stamp on all the clowns who have infiltrated our borders over the last 10 yrs. and send them back.
    NO MORE STUDENT VISAS EITHER!!!!!!!

    P.S. ,,,,,,,Don't ask me to tell you how I really feel.
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  8. #67
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    Are you saying you refuse to push "1" for english?

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    "ILLEGAL" they have no right to be here nor have any of the privledges WE have as Americans. Send em back. Come back the legal way from wherever, inlist in our Armed Forces and fight for "OUR COUNTRY" with an Honorable Discharge knowing you may not come back like many of "OUR" beloved Brothers and Sisters have. Then and maybe then yes. Nuff said.

    SEMPER FI

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    I'd be interested to see any factual data you have to support all of your claims since Mexico is responsible for almost 30% of all documented nonimmigrant admissions into this country and is the only country to attain double digit percentages.
    For quick research on your question-- this Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Not quite what I said, but look at the recent jump in illegal migration from China. Also note that much of the illegal migration from South of the border is not necessarily Mexican.

    Now, I'm all for stopping, and for catching, illegals. What I am against is totalitarian methodology to get the job done.

    K mentioned the Russian approach. It is usually a good idea to look at what Russia does and do the opposite.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Sorry Hop, but that pretty much doesn't support your statements at all. The fact is, most immigration issues involving Mexico and our Mexican border constitute the majority of our illegal immigration problem. I'm not sure why you want to downplay that so much. Our Mexican border is a problem for us. Mexican illegal immigrants are a problem for our country. Are there other illegal immigrants in our country? Sure there are. No other group or nationality comes close to the numbers though and there isn't any other issue that can singly claim to be a 'large' problem that compares to the illegal Mexican immigration problem as you claimed.

    DHS estimates that of the roughly 10.5 million unauthorized immigrants inside the US borders in '09, over 6.5 million are of Mexican nationality. That only leaves around 4 million for the rest of the worlds illegal immigrants and of those, an almost 1.5 million are Central American who are using our porous southern borders to gain access to this country.

    These people cost the states billions of dollars. Billions. Between healthcare costs, education costs, incarceration costs. These are real dollars that could be used for resources for legal residents but must come out of state budgets every year and be spent on people living in this country illegally. Therein lies my big problem with our federal government's lack of progress or effort. It's their problem, but it's the state budgets that take the biggest hit because of the blind eye approach that our government seems keen to continue taking. When a state tries to take hold of the situation and do something about it the federal government screams foul, human rights groups cry foul and every bleeding heart starts breaking out fascist and racist references. It's simply not true. It's a problem that the states pay for, especially border states like California, Texas and Arizona and if they have to foot a huge part of the bill, they ought to have some power to intervene.
    gunsnroses likes this.

  12. #71
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    I agree with TX Expat. This is a HUGE state problem and I don't blame states one bit for taking their own action. When the Feds fail, who is left to pick up the slack? Nobody really knows what happens in CA, AZ, NW, and TX other then those states mentioned that deal with (and pay for) it on a daily basis.

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    They have been "officially" estimating the illegal pop as 10-12 million for the last 20 years. Yet somehow, the "official" estimates for illegals living in Los Angeles county ALONE are over ONE MILLION people. So I am to believe that 10% of all the illegals in the country live in Los Angeles?!

    Horse squeeze.

    We have 30 million PLUS illegals in this country.

    I would not like if they were Italians, Canadians, or the Swedish Bikini team (well, maybe we could give them a waiver!) but the fact is that they are overwhelmingly Mexican, and many from countries further south.

    I don't care for how afflicted we are with documentation, but the fact is that we are. I once declined to show a police officer my ID. That was back in the 70's. Any illusions about how "free" we EVER were, were settled decades ago.

    And still, the ONLY people exempt of the hassle to carry government documentation in this country are those who have no legal business to be here.

    If we are going to exploit Mexicans with low wages that inner city teenagers would sneer at, then let's not pretend it has a darn thing to do with "compassion" It is neo slavery and let's own up to it. But making them an extra special class of criminals who are above the law, is just wrong.

    Declaring their offspring born in this country to be "citizens" is a total misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment.

    A cat can have kittens in the oven, that doesn't make them biscuits.

  14. #73
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    To the original topic, Illegal aliens have the human right to keep and bear arms.....
    But not HERE.

    Personally I would give each of them an AR 15 and a map to the Oligarchs in Mexico City, that's where there problems originate.....

    It would take about 3 days for the Mexican Army to completely shut down the Northward flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    K mentioned the Russian approach. It is usually a good idea to look at what Russia does and do the opposite.
    Hop - the original statement regarding what countries I have been to where your passport is taken, copied and the copy provided to the authorities was:

    Russia, England used to do this, they did not on my last trip in September, Italy, Spain, Scotland, Germany, Austria, etc.
    Yes this included Russia, but it neither centered around Russia or singled them out. There are a host of other western European countries in this list. If you are going to quote what I said, at least put it in context - don't pick and choose the words or concepts out of the list.

    Show you son this picture of Italian cops searching a car. The guy in the back has the little red and white stick they use to pull the cars over in his belt.

    italycop.jpg
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisABQ View Post
    A cat can have kittens in the oven, that doesn't make them biscuits.
    That, sir, will be one of my favorite quips from this point forward.

    And to your point, I agree; yes, the estimates for illegal population in this country are probably grossly understated, but for the purposes of stating 'fact', I try to keep with documented data. I'd bet it's three times as bad as they 'estimate' and maybe even higher than that.

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