"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit - Page 6

"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

This is a discussion on "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Ah, Hopyard's favorite subject. Beware all who enter, logic and facts will be deemed unimportant....

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  1. #76
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Ah, Hopyard's favorite subject. Beware all who enter, logic and facts will be deemed unimportant.


  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Ah, Hopyard's favorite subject. Beware all who enter, logic and facts will be deemed unimportant.
    Dislike! Hopyard is very logical in his posts concerning logic and fact. I dont agree with him on this topic but I dont trash him?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Hop - the original statement regarding what countries I have been to where your passport is taken, copied and the copy provided to the authorities was:



    Yes this included Russia, but it neither centered around Russia or singled them out. There are a host of other western European countries in this list. If you are going to quote what I said, at least put it in context - don't pick and choose the words or concepts out of the list.

    Show you son this picture of Italian cops searching a car. The guy in the back has the little red and white stick they use to pull the cars over in his belt.

    Attachment 55184
    Do you want to live this way?
    bigmacque likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  4. #79
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses View Post
    Dislike! Hopyard is very logical in his posts concerning logic and fact. I dont agree with him on this topic but I dont trash him?
    Relax, Hop and I have had this debate for longer than you have been around. There has never been any trash talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Relax, Hop and I have had this debate for longer than you have been around. There has never been any trash talk.
    :-) Okay! LOL!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Do you want to live this way?
    I think we already do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Do you want to live this way?
    Hop - Whether or not I want to live that way, our government, Executive, Legislative and Judiciary, is forcing us to. They are ignoring the Constitution at an alarming pace and unless we, the people, take it back, we are likely to lose the country. I think there is still time to take it back at the ballot box, but that time is now.

    I personally would like to see all incumbents voted out. I realize that that cannot happen in less than 3 election cycles. Further, I would like to see Justices and federal judges impeached when they act in an unconstitutional fashion.

    Now, whether I should have to provide documents or not, it is a fact of life. My daughter, who does not drive, had to get a state ID card to get a job and a bank account. It is just the way it currently is. To sign her up for school, I had to show my DL and proof of residence. Again, it is just the way it is. If I have to do that, I see no reason why everybody should not have to do that. If they prove to be illegal documents or criminal aliens, I have no problem with the authorities taking appropriate actions.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    For quick research on your question-- this Illegal immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Not quite what I said, but look at the recent jump in illegal migration from China. Also note that much of the illegal migration from South of the border is not necessarily Mexican.


    Now, I'm all for stopping, and for catching, illegals. What I am against is totalitarian methodology to get the job done.

    K mentioned the Russian approach. It is usually a good idea to look at what Russia does and do the opposite.
    We all tend to refer to the hordes of folks flooding in from south of the Mexican border illegally as "Mexican" because most speak Spanish and look the same. The problem remains....I guess we can split hairs and try to define which country down there they originated from but does it really matter?
    Also.....while illegal immigration from China may be a secondary problem, I don't see my schools, hospitals, and welfare centers packed full of Asian people. I don't drive thru Asian slums, and we aren't exactly filling up our prisons, jails and courtrooms with Asian people.
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
    Ronald Reagan

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Hop - Whether or not I want to live that way, our government, Executive, Legislative and Judiciary, is forcing us to. They are ignoring the Constitution at an alarming pace and unless we, the people, take it back, we are likely to lose the country. I think there is still time to take it back at the ballot box, but that time is now.

    I personally would like to see all incumbents voted out. I realize that that cannot happen in less than 3 election cycles. Further, I would like to see Justices and federal judges impeached when they act in an unconstitutional fashion.

    Now, whether I should have to provide documents or not, it is a fact of life. My daughter, who does not drive, had to get a state ID card to get a job and a bank account. It is just the way it currently is. To sign her up for school, I had to show my DL and proof of residence. Again, it is just the way it is. If I have to do that, I see no reason why everybody should not have to do that. If they prove to be illegal documents or criminal aliens, I have no problem with the authorities taking appropriate actions.
    It is the way it currently is, and it is WRONG. It wasn't like this for the first 220 years or so of our history.

    I find it utterly disgusting that "conservatives" come here and don't want to "conserve" our American way of life. They want a European approach.

    We as individuals can't do much about what was done in the 70s (I think) when it was decreed that even new borns need a soc sec number for the IRS to more efficiently process. We can't do much about the fact that in the 1990s someone decided it would somehow make airline travel safer if we had to produce ID to get on board in addition to the good old fashioned paper ticket.

    We as individuals can't do much about the post Hibbs ruling (which has been stretched out of all recognition of its original meaning) of the early 2000s, or about "Real ID," or about the requirement in the Patriot Act that you need ID to stay at a hotel, or board a train, or even get on a bus because one maniac attacked a driver while en route.

    But we sure as heck can let our pols know that we don't want to live in a world like this. That our parents and our grandparents didn't live in such a world, and that it is NOT conservative to want the trappings of totalitarianism.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    We all tend to refer to the hordes of folks flooding in from south of the Mexican border illegally as "Mexican" because most speak Spanish and look the same. The problem remains....I guess we can split hairs and try to define which country down there they originated from but does it really matter?
    Also.....while illegal immigration from China may be a secondary problem, I don't see my schools, hospitals, and welfare centers packed full of Asian people. I don't drive thru Asian slums, and we aren't exactly filling up our prisons, jails and courtrooms with Asian people.
    Which is the problem that concerns you? Illegal migration into the country (referring to the jump in Chinese) or the use of hospitals and other services by folks here illegally?

    I don't want people here illegally either. I don't want our dollars wasted either. BUT, I don't want to turn our society into a papers please society in order to solve the problem. In fact, I see this turn of events as extremely dangerous to the future of our way of life; far more so than the disruptions caused by illegal migrants.

    Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. (And it is estimated that 10-12% of all people here fully legitimately don't have the necessary papers to prove things. Life is messy. Fires happen. Homes get broken. Documents get lost. Are you sure you want to turn people into non-people trying to live in a certain limbo?)
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Hop - Whether or not I want to live that way, our government, Executive, Legislative and Judiciary, is forcing us to. They are ignoring the Constitution at an alarming pace and unless we, the people, take it back, we are likely to lose the country. I think there is still time to take it back at the ballot box, but that time is now.

    I personally would like to see all incumbents voted out. I realize that that cannot happen in less than 3 election cycles. Further, I would like to see Justices and federal judges impeached when they act in an unconstitutional fashion.

    Now, whether I should have to provide documents or not, it is a fact of life. My daughter, who does not drive, had to get a state ID card to get a job and a bank account. It is just the way it currently is. To sign her up for school, I had to show my DL and proof of residence. Again, it is just the way it is. If I have to do that, I see no reason why everybody should not have to do that. If they prove to be illegal documents or criminal aliens, I have no problem with the authorities taking appropriate actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It is the way it currently is, and it is WRONG. It wasn't like this for the first 220 years or so of our history.

    I find it utterly disgusting that "conservatives" come here and don't want to "conserve" our American way of life. They want a European approach.

    We as individuals can't do much about what was done in the 70s (I think) when it was decreed that even new borns need a soc sec number for the IRS to more efficiently process. We can't do much about the fact that in the 1990s someone decided it would somehow make airline travel safer if we had to produce ID to get on board in addition to the good old fashioned paper ticket.

    We as individuals can't do much about the post Hibbs ruling (which has been stretched out of all recognition of its original meaning) of the early 2000s, or about "Real ID," or about the requirement in the Patriot Act that you need ID to stay at a hotel, or board a train, or even get on a bus because one maniac attacked a driver while en route.

    But we sure as heck can let our pols know that we don't want to live in a world like this. That our parents and our grandparents didn't live in such a world, and that it is NOT conservative to want the trappings of totalitarianism.
    Hop - Not sure what you don't get about what I am saying. I want the people to take the government back. I want to do it at the ballot box and I still feel there is time to do it this way. Just because I have stated something is what it is, does not mean that I don't think we should change it.

    Read my posts in their entirety and you will see that I am all about taking this country back from the ruling class, but it should be done at the ballot box. You have previously called me unpatriotic and suggested that I am suborning treason for this. I really fail to see where you are coming from given the totality of my posts - taken in context.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It is the way it currently is, and it is WRONG. It wasn't like this for the first 220 years or so of our history.

    I find it utterly disgusting that "conservatives" come here and don't want to "conserve" our American way of life. They want a European approach.

    We as individuals can't do much about what was done in the 70s (I think) when it was decreed that even new borns need a soc sec number for the IRS to more efficiently process. We can't do much about the fact that in the 1990s someone decided it would somehow make airline travel safer if we had to produce ID to get on board in addition to the good old fashioned paper ticket.

    We as individuals can't do much about the post Hibbs ruling (which has been stretched out of all recognition of its original meaning) of the early 2000s, or about "Real ID," or about the requirement in the Patriot Act that you need ID to stay at a hotel, or board a train, or even get on a bus because one maniac attacked a driver while en route.

    But we sure as heck can let our pols know that we don't want to live in a world like this. That our parents and our grandparents didn't live in such a world, and that it is NOT conservative to want the trappings of totalitarianism.
    Let me give you a different perspective, one I'm sure you'll totally disagree with. America can either identify and deal with the issues that it currently faces or it can go the way of every other thing in human history that fails to evolve with the times. You think that because we had 200 years of a certain way of life that we should continue that? That's absurd. Societies must evolve if they want to remain viable. I'm sorry if you find it so difficult to keep proof of residence on you for such things as flying or whatever else, but our problems of illegal immigration and potential for terrorist acts on our soil isn't going to decrease simply because we wish them away. You can have a utopian view on what 'should' be our way of life, but if it isn't viable, then it isn't viable.

    What exactly would be your 'solution' to all this? You seem to be against a lot but I haven't read you come up with any real alternatives. How do you suggest we find and remove illegal aliens from our country if you think needing a state issued ID is over the top? I suppose we can't detain anyone to find out anything, since in your utopia nobody needs to prove anything... How are we going to investigate, find and stop terrorist attacks on our own soil if we go back to 1960's airline boarding passes and just let anyone on board an aircraft with as many improvised explosives as they can manage to bring on board without attracting undue attention? We did things differently then because times were different. People were different. Our enemies were different.

    The fact is that you can either stay current or you can be history. It's that simple. All the moaning about how things used to be and how things shouldn't be changed is as old as it is useless. Since the Industrial Revolution, workers would fight progress out of the selfish fear of becoming obsolete. Those who didn't adapt to become part of the process did indeed become obsolete. America can either choose to get tough and face some painful choices about our issues or we can become the next nation to fall.

    What's your beef with the Supreme's ruling on Nevada DHR vs. Hibbs? Just curious how that fits into anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    to fall.

    What's your beef with the Supreme's ruling on Nevada DHR vs. Hibbs? Just curious how that fits into anything.
    My mistake, I meant Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada. It gets misconstrued as more than what the Justices actually
    dealt with in the ruling. It is often misused as an example that people must carry papers, when in fact the ruling was only that they must identify themselves-- Hiibel refused to even state his name.

    I don't think that your other arguments that the world is changing so we have to change with respect to our way of life is valid.

    There has always been illegal migration in and it was always dealt with without resorting to a totalitarian form of identification system. When you institute that, it is only a short jump to folks becoming non-persons. And as we see from what Congress has just done, a short jump to losing Habeus rights.

    We better watch out; and I'm not talking about the seasonal use of that phrase.

    You asked for thoughts on solutions. Well for starters, we don't keep track of lawful entrants and whether or not they actually leave. I've heard a few stories about (particularly Asian) visitors entering and simply staying. These aren't "wetbacks" or folks who cross at desert trails. These are people who enter and simply stay---forever. Dang, even Costa Rica (last time I was there) kept computer records of exits. When you came in they put a bar code on your passport, and when you exited they
    scanned it. As far as I know we don't even do that sort of rudimentary attempt at preventing overstays. (I'm sure someone will tell me if I am wrong.)

    Why should the whole of society become burdened with all of the ID stuff when there are other routes to dealing with the problem?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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    Hop, I do not disagree with any of your particular points.

    IMO, the Feds and the smarter-than-anybody social engineers allowed the illegal alien situation to get this out of hand in order to transform our society into the over-regimented "papers please" society they always wanted.

    I'm fine with not "needing" gov't ID every day, but how exactly does law enforcement keep tabs on visitors, immigrants, or illegals if the very people we should be keeping track of, can simply refuse demands for id.

    Under the Queensbury rules that you seem to advocate, police would have no choice but to release, or not even take custody of unidentified suspects, because they "don't have to" identify themselves.

    I don't think a cop should ask "fishing" questions of anybody unless he has probable cause, or reasonable articulable suspicion.....
    but those things don't mean what they used to.

    What we have now, only citizens and legal residents and visitors are obligated to carry ID....
    MS-13 criminals, identity thieves, human traffickers, illegal alien terrorists: not so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses View Post
    I have one that has my info on it with my polling place and says Democrat.
    Unfortunately Democrats (Holder's DoJ and a number of Democrat advocacy groups) are suing every state with voter ID laws in order to overturn them. The obvious conclusion to draw is that voting fraud constitutes a significant portion of Democrat votes, more than enough to sway elections, otherwise they wouldn't care about measures designed to stop voting fraud. A lot of people are getting really angry at this; some of them are even Democrats.

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