"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit - Page 7

"Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit

This is a discussion on "Illegal immigrants have no right to arms"- Court of Appeals for the 8th Circuit within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; That's pretty much exactly correct. Tracking nonimmigrant visitors, like Hop wants, would pretty much do what exactly? Once they are in this country, even if ...

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  1. #91
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    That's pretty much exactly correct. Tracking nonimmigrant visitors, like Hop wants, would pretty much do what exactly? Once they are in this country, even if they overstay their leave, he seems to think that we could just go pick them up, deport them and problem solved. Going to be difficult to do when we can't ask anyone for an ID, and nobody is going to be required to show one. You can't prove the absence of something if you refuse to allow proof by contradiction. The only way your "solution" will work is if legal US citizens can prove that they are just that. Otherwise "tracking" nonimmigrant entrances and failures to leave is absolutely nothing more than a waste of resources. Or do you believe that all these hordes of Chinese illegal immigrants, that you are so much more concerned about, who are dishonest enough to overstay their visa but will always be honest enough to give the government current, valid addresses where we can just swing by and pick them up. And of course they will be honest enough to identify themselves and confess their crimes to the first officer they see, making figuring out who's legal and who isn't a non-issue. Never mind the fact that even if you rounded up all these groups and got rid of them, we'd sill be left with the same problem because those dastardly British, Chinese and Canadian illegals don't amount to much more than a fraction of the illegal alien population.

    You don't think my arguments are valid but you have an almost humorously narrow view of the problem and your solution, as you stated it, isn't even viable, based on your abhorrence of having to carry legal form of ID. You are sadly mistaken on a number of other points as well. First off, we have a worse illegal immigration problem than we've ever faced and sorry, but no, we haven't ever dealt with it effectively, so history doesn't work for you; it's pretty much a series of ever increasing failures, they most certainly shouldn't be the blueprint for the future. Next, we have several systems for tracking nonimmigrant visitors, and many different departments that deal with it. We don't have a convenient computer tracking device like Costa Rica because Costa Rica has 4.5 million people and less than 20,000 sq. miles of land. Costa Rica doesn't issue a nonimmigrant visa, you just show up with your valid passport and you're in. At least that's how it used to be and that's why they track you with the barcode the way they do. The US issues nonimmigrant visas to all but a select number of friendly countries and those are tracked. We don't just let tons of folks in and then never check to see if anyone leaves. Please try to tell me that the few countries who are eligible for the Visa Waiver Program are the real illegal immigration problem, I'd love to hear it...

    How about you start by accepting that the small percentage of Chinese who are here illegally do not constitute the majority of the problem. Visa hopping foreigners from Canada and Europe are not the problem. You keep talking about this stuff and it's like listening to someone complain about how their internet is out while their house is getting leveled by a tornado.


  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    That's pretty much exactly correct. Tracking nonimmigrant visitors, like Hop wants, would pretty much do what exactly? Once they are in this country, even if they overstay their leave, he seems to think that we could just go pick them up, deport them and problem solved. Going to be difficult to do when we can't ask anyone for an ID, and nobody is going to be required to show one. You can't prove the absence of something if you refuse to allow proof by contradiction. The only way your "solution" will work is if legal US citizens can prove that they are just that. Otherwise "tracking" nonimmigrant entrances and failures to leave is absolutely nothing more than a waste of resources. Or do you believe that all these hordes of Chinese illegal immigrants, that you are so much more concerned about, who are dishonest enough to overstay their visa but will always be honest enough to give the government current, valid addresses where we can just swing by and pick them up. And of course they will be honest enough to identify themselves and confess their crimes to the first officer they see, making figuring out who's legal and who isn't a non-issue. Never mind the fact that even if you rounded up all these groups and got rid of them, we'd sill be left with the same problem because those dastardly British, Chinese and Canadian illegals don't amount to much more than a fraction of the illegal alien population.
    The skilled overstays in my opinion are a much larger threat to us than the guy with a shovel. Those skilled overstays from Asia, Asia Minor, and Europe compete in the high tech industries and engage in industrial espionage.

    They are a security problem that is more insidious but considerably less serious than the guy who wants to pick fruit.

    You can close the borders with triple fencing, drones, and mines for all I care, but that is not going to stop an ever increasing
    illegal population from forming. There has to be some means for making certain that tourists and H1Bs, and Js leave when they are supposed to leave. One way of course -- which has failed completely-- is to pretend that we are holding employers responsible for who they hire. In theory not a bad idea, but it doesn't really work out well.

    Some problems don't have easy and readily identifiable solutions. That doesn't mean we should give up our freedom and become like any other totalitarian state to solve the problem.

    About 16 years back, before the web was the major mode of cyber communication Usenet was a viable chat system. There was and may still be a group called misc.legal.moderated. Someone once posted her dilemma. She was 35 y.o. Her husband had just died. She had never had a DL. She couldn't get a DL because she didn't have her birth certificate. She couldn't get her birth certificate because she didn't have a DL. So she was becoming a "non-person" as far as being able to get along in our society.

    Moreover, some of the policies which some of the Agencies have adopted on what constitutes proper ID are mind boggling. I once had some business with the Soc. Sec. office. My passport wasn't good enough for them, but a crumpled up old piece of paper that had no biometrics (no photo) was required. You can't have a good ID system (even if one were desirable) on the basis of the 50 different certificate systems --- and all you have to do to get a glimpse at how some will twist things is the recent
    "controversy" over O's birth certificate. If you have a papers please society, an official or an Agency can make a rule or a decision, and suddenly you are a non-person. You aren't eligible for.... being president.

    We are screwing up by the numbers and our kids will pay the price.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The skilled overstays in my opinion are a much larger threat to us than the guy with a shovel. Those skilled overstays from Asia, Asia Minor, and Europe compete in the high tech industries and engage in industrial espionage.

    They are a security problem that is more insidious but considerably less serious than the guy who wants to pick fruit.
    You want to "track" these overstaying foreigners and somehow telepathically know that they are here on an expired visa, because you believe that you shouldn't have to be able to prove you are here legally. I guess we should start shackling all the Canadian visitors with some tamper-proof RF transponders since in your world, that would be about the only way we could tell a citizen from an illegal. And we'll just ignore the millions of illegals who sponge billions of American dollars out of our pockets because you don't deem them a threat to our nation. Brilliant...

    Buddy, I don't know what else to say to you. Your opinions are based on some fantasy that you've created obviously, because you don't have, nor could you find if you tried, any factual data to support anything you've said. You can believe whatever you want but that doesn't make it fact, and if you can't actually find any intelligent data to support your position, it's not going to be considered credible to anyone but yourself.
    Last edited by TX expat; December 22nd, 2011 at 02:52 PM.

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