Daniel Sayers - Oregon, Ohio Open Carry Encounter

Daniel Sayers - Oregon, Ohio Open Carry Encounter

This is a discussion on Daniel Sayers - Oregon, Ohio Open Carry Encounter within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; This is one of those what the... stories I'm still trying to figure out just what he did wrong. Daniel Sayers - Oregon, Ohio Open ...

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Thread: Daniel Sayers - Oregon, Ohio Open Carry Encounter

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Daniel Sayers - Oregon, Ohio Open Carry Encounter

    This is one of those what the... stories I'm still trying to figure out just what he did wrong.

    Daniel Sayers - Oregon, Ohio Open Carry Encounter there is a video link at the bottom of the story.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century


  2. #2
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    Apparently nothing but frighten the sheep. Almost sounds as if he was out to challenge the laws though.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    What he did wrong is behave beligerantly while being questioned. If he had not been such a jackhole, the whole thing would have been over in a few minutes with no charges filed.

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    I have the full vid of this - and his problem was just not letting things go as needed.

    He was eventually grounded and had an AR pointing at him - what he forgot tho while protesting his rights all the time was - that some dufus had started everything by calling in - ''man with gun''.

    The cops have to treat that as major every time - which he should realize - we all have to.

    The dialog included the cops sorta agreeing but still - he went on and on - way too long for his own good IMO.
    Chris - P95
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    Member Array cpmiv's Avatar
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    He really didn't do anything wrong legally. Now I've never been in a discussion with an LEO (except for speeding, damn lead foot) but if a weapon is pointed my way and it's not a BG / GG encounter its time to follow commands and only respond when needed until a lawyer arrives. Just CYA. I'd probably be as anry but quiet.
    There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is: How do we arm the other 11? (Yuri Orlov [Nicolas Cage] Lord of War)

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Last week's discussion had a number of good comments.

    Ditto on the belligerence. That'll do it every time.

    Synopsis: The LEO's didn't know him, when they initiated contact. Driver claimed doors wouldn't work; wouldn't keep hands visible; kept loudly claiming his rights were being violated; kept loudly reacting to LEO questions with statements regarding his own concerns, instead of answering the questions. The 2nd LEO maintained an AR15 on him, until his partner cuffed him ... the AR15 being a loud claim by the man of a violation, when in reality it's standard procedure for the safety of the LEO's until they acquire control of the situation.

    Volatile, non-cooperative behavior at the worst possible time on the part of Mr. Sayers.

    IMO, fully and completely justified, once he started shooting his mouth off.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Rule number two when dealing with LEOs is be couteous and respectful (read: don't be a jackhole). That is pretty easy for most folks. This guy obviously couldn't help himself. Frankly, anyone with that temperment has no business with a CCL, IMHO.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Just another reason for CONCEALED CARRY. If he had kept it out of sight, the sheeple probably wouldn't have noticed and called it in. He should have kept his mouth shut.
    Why Ike, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game Ike. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

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    Wow. So much, for free speech, huh....

    "Don't Piss off LE, or they might charge you with crimes, that they know full well, are unconstituional (C'mon, 'possession of a firearm'!)"

    Lesson learned...

    I mean, at various jobs, I've had people piss me off, and get disrespectful towards me, but, I've managed not to violate any of thier constitutional rights, as an act of retribution....
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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PgSqlQuery View Post
    ... charge you with crimes, that they know full well, are unconstituional ...
    Violation of constitutional rights, by the LEO's against Mr. Sayers? In what way?

    IIRC, he had been charged with failure to notify the police he had a license and was carrying. Is this the unconstitutional violation being referred to?
    Last edited by ccw9mm; August 19th, 2006 at 06:19 AM.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PgSqlQuery View Post
    Wow. So much, for free speech, huh....

    "Don't Piss off LE, or they might charge you with crimes, that they know full well, are unconstituional (C'mon, 'possession of a firearm'!)"

    Lesson learned...

    I mean, at various jobs, I've had people piss me off, and get disrespectful towards me, but, I've managed not to violate any of thier constitutional rights, as an act of retribution....
    When firearms are present, being respectful can save your life. Try watching cops sometime. Most of the offenders are mouthy and refuse to cooperate. If many of them did cooperate , they might not get a ride downtown.
    When a cop is talking to you down the barrel of a gun, best to be polite and resolve the situation. Let your lawyer sort it out , if need be.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Member Array PgSqlQuery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Violation of constitutional rights, by the LEO's against Mr. Sayers? In what way?

    IIRC, he had been charged with failure to notify the police he had a license and was carrying. Is this the unconstitutional violation being referred to?
    Like I said in that post.... Charge #1 was 'Possession of a weapon in a public place'

    Oregon code 549.18 -- Possession of a weapon in a public place]
    (a) No person, in and about the streets, alleys, public places of the City, or at any
    place other than the residence or fixed place of buisiness of such person, or while on a
    suitable firing range or while being used for lawful hunting, or while unloaded at a public
    firearms display, show or exhibition shall be in posession of, carry, or have on or about
    his person, any pistol, revolver, rigle, shorgun or any weapon by whatever name known,
    which is designed to expel a projectile or projectiles by the action of expanding gasses, or
    any bowie knife, dirk, blackjack, bullyclub, brass knuckles, or any other weapon capable of
    inflicting bodily harm. (Ord. 3-1974. Passed 1-14-74.)

    (b) Whoever violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree.
    IMO, that goes the opposite direction from either:

    Second Amendment, US Constitiution
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
    OR

    Section 4, Ohio Constitution
    The people have the right to bear arms for their defence and security; but standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and shall not be kept up; and the military shall be in strict subordination to the civil power.
    IMO, IANAL, etc
    Where's the best place to apply for your Ohio CHL?
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    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    IIRC....This was the case where the idiotic "plain sight car carry" rule applied--he got out of his car, weapon exposed...decided not to cover up despite having a CCW and went into the store to pay for gas.

    Local sheep got scared....called "man with a gun"

    Local PD conducted a felony stop, but because the sirens were going--the POs could not hear him notify them that he had a legally carried weapon; however, since OH does not have pre-emption, was charged with a crime because the city/county ordinance effectively banned firearms.

    His attitude aside, why were the dashcam tapes edited? If the POs were completely in the right in how they conducted business, why haven't the *complete* tapes been turned over to the defendant's lawyer (as required through discovery proceedings).

    IANAL, but even though it's been reported that he was being a jackhole, he still has the right to question why he was being pulled over when he had not broken any law (to his knowledge). Plus, after seeing a bunch of videos/reading stories about how the PO has ADs/NDs, while pointing them at a suspect being handuffed, and then accidentally killing a suspect, I would have been a little concerned. Personally, I think this is a case where Bubba got a new toy (AR-15) and was going to see how it worked--or knowing it was possibly a CCW holder (do they link license with CCW permits in OH?), scare the cr@p out of him). Do you really need an AR-15 to conduct a felony stop at pistol-length distance??

    Granted, this is not the way I would have conducted myself, plus OH CCW laws are still in their infancy. OH needs to get rid of pre-emption, eliminating the patchwork laws they have, *and* get rid of the "plain sight" car carry law or we will see more of these "man with a gun" calls....and more felony stops, possibly going bad--i.e. killing someone.

    Mike in VA
    Last edited by SIGguy229; August 20th, 2006 at 01:43 PM.

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    VIP Member Array Old Chief's Avatar
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    To be right is one thing, to be polite is everything. Shooting off ones mouth can and most often results in escalating the situation. Higher level, higher threat, earning one an all expense paid ride in the back seat of a cruiser, fact of life.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    ... "man with a gun" calls....and more felony stops, possibly going bad--i.e. killing someone.
    You're right. There are many such felony stops. Many LEO's get shot during them. Hence, the precautions.

    Does anyone have the definitive (proven) list of all charges actually documented against Mr. Sayers? I've only found varying lists on some internet sites, though the simple fact they differ is enough for me to question each of them.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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