Marine says NO! - Page 4

Marine says NO!

This is a discussion on Marine says NO! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; I give the guy credit for having the guts to take on NYC and the DA. The question is who is going to give who ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array WD54241's Avatar
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    I give the guy credit for having the guts to take on NYC and the DA. The question is who is going to give who the bigger black eye? I suspect the DA will attempt to destroy this guy after rejecting the plea deal. The mayors office is going to support and demand the DA to crush him. Bloomberg will NEVER change his views! I hope this guys got deep pockets! he is gonna need it.


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKinNY View Post
    If the Marine would have applied and showed that he carries large sums of cash and jewels. He would have received at least a restricted carry that would allow him to carry while working. The hundreds spent would have saved his thousands today.

    Rant Off
    Do they issue at all to non-residents? If not, there isn't any way for him to have applied. Not that it matters.
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  3. #48
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    As a Marine he was restricted from carrying a weapon on base if not on duty. (So much for we trusted him to carry guns in Corps argument." As a former Career SNCO with 30 years active duty, I have no sympathy for a Marine that can't follow orders/rules. My being a Marine for 30 years doesn't give me or any other Marine a pass to break the law. If anything, he should be held to a higher standard to follow the law. He knows better! New York's laws may be screwy and possibly even unconstitutional (this is still a judgement call for the USSC), but they are still the law at this time. Biggest reason I live in Tennessee and have no intention of visiting NY, IL or Mass.
    Sig35seven, suntzu and Sig 210 like this.
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  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Unfortunately, at present, NY's laws, while certainly Draconian, are not illegal. With luck, this case will get to define them as illegal (unconstitutional), but they are not presently.
    Which is why he should be prosecuted. There should be no reason he felt it was OK to violate the law. He is no more special then anyone else. I hope he gets the same charges as anyone else.

    He might be a jeweler but the fact is that just because somebody's carrying a large sum of money or expensive items doesn't mean they are worth more than you or I. I sympathize with him but until the law is changed, we should punish him the same as the gangbanger on the steps who gets caught illegally carrying a firearm. The law should treat us as equals. If anything we should work towards changing the law. And he should have known better.

  5. #50
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Which is why he should be prosecuted. There should be no reason he felt it was OK to violate the law. He is no more special then anyone else. I hope he gets the same charges as anyone else.

    He might be a jeweler but the fact is that just because somebody's carrying a large sum of money or expensive items doesn't mean they are worth more than you or I. I sympathize with him but until the law is changed, we should punish him the same as the gangbanger on the steps who gets caught illegally carrying a firearm. The law should treat us as equals. If anything we should work towards changing the law. And he should have known better.
    Yes, he should have known better. Yes, there should be equal treatment under the law. But these laws are draconian to the point of beyond absurd. I do disagree with you on one point, that he should be prosecuted like a gang banger because his intentions were obviously different and fundamentally, I do not hold word of law as a concept of virtue in and of itself. Laws are made by man. Laws are flawed, both in their intent and especially in their wording which often times fails to match intent. As laws are increasingly written by the corrupt for the benefit of the corrupt, I find it harder and harder to have any sort of faith or put value in the concept of law and to me this is an example of such corruption. If any entity deserves punishment under law , it is the city of NY and it's so called leaders.

    I hope that this case brings this problem to the forefront and ultimately leads to it being dealt with.

  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    What everyone has to remember, is that as of now, it has been ruled by SCOTUS that states can apply "reasonable" restrictions on the right to keep and bear arms, and that they have not yet declared that we have a constitutional right to carry those arms concealed.

    Many states have permit systems that prohibit out of staters or enters reciprocity agreements with select few other states. If this were a state that had a permit system, but did not honor the IN permit, and this guy carried there and got busted would we be singing the same tune? If I carried in MN with my IA permit, I would be doing so illegally. Where is the outrage against MN?

    He carried in a state that does not honor his permit. Illegally, which is within the parameters of SCOTUS rulings regarding the right to keep and bear arms. PERIOD.

    As for "We the people of the US trusted this Marine with far more dangerous weapons than a hand gun" I get sick and tired of seeing this argument. We the people of the US trust Marines with far more dangerous weapons than a handgun...when on the range, and in theater. Stateside we weren't trusted with a knife greater than 3" in a barracks room or a glass bottle of orange juice for that matter. Where's the outrage over that?

    Are NY gun laws "wrong"? Yes, but claiming ignorance of those laws as a defense is just as wrong.

    I can't see how pleading not guilty of this when he clearly was is going to pan out in his favor...
    Basically this explains what I wanted to say.

  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    Yes, he should have known better. Yes, there should be equal treatment under the law. But these laws are draconian to the point of beyond absurd. I do disagree with you on one point, that he should be prosecuted like a gang banger because his intentions were obviously different and fundamentally, I do not hold word of law as a concept of virtue in and of itself. Laws are made by man. Laws are flawed, both in their intent and especially in their wording which often times fails to match intent. As laws are increasingly written by the corrupt for the benefit of the corrupt, I find it harder and harder to have any sort of faith or put value in the concept of law and to me this is an example of such corruption. If any entity deserves punishment under law , it is the city of NY and it's so called leaders.

    I hope that this case brings this problem to the forefront and ultimately leads to it being dealt with.
    The man carried a gun for the same reasons gang bangers carry guns. To protect themselves. Simple as that. I also would not call the laws draconian anymore than the laws of many other states such as Texas. Different laws are viewed as draconian by some and reasonable by others. Neither is right.

  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    The man carried a gun for the same reasons gang bangers carry guns. To protect themselves. Simple as that.
    Isn't this why any of us carry? To protect ourselves? While I can't say that I understand the psychology of a gang bangers, I would theorise that committing crimes is either a be-all end-all goal of itself or at least a don't care as they pursue whatever it is that they want. This is where the marine differs in that he deliberately and explicitly attempted to comply with a law.

    I also would not call the laws draconian anymore than the laws of many other states such as Texas. Different laws are viewed as draconian by some and reasonable by others.
    This is very true and a good point. My state has some weird anti-gun laws that are equally draconian. Texas, surprisingly to many (myself included), has some real winners in this regard. There are a only a few ways that I know of to get them changed. Two legitimate ones being through legislative action or through a court challenge. In this instance, NY in general and overall, has an air of arrogance that would make it particularly satisfying to see them eat a dose of humility and be forced to change.

    Neither is right.
    This is where I was heading and what I am getting at with my unwillingness to support law for the sake of law. Just because it is law doesn't make it right. When it is wrong it needs to be challenged and defeated. Furthermore, to apply law or penalty of law as a mechanical action without factoring in the criminal intent, or lack thereof, is overly simplistic and fails to even begin to address the fundamental premise and purpose of law in a post feudal society: to provide a set of guidelines for acceptable behaviour that reflect and take into account the basic concepts of right and wrong rather than reflecting the whim and desire of an elite class. At worst, and in a more evolved society it becomes one of the pillars of authoritarian rule.

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Posted by noway2: "This is where I was heading and what I am getting at with my unwillingness to support law for the sake of law. Just because it is law doesn't make it right. When it is wrong it needs to be challenged and defeated. Furthermore, to apply law or penalty of law as a mechanical action without factoring in the criminal intent, or lack thereof, is overly simplistic and fails to even begin to address the fundamental premise and purpose of law in a post feudal society: to provide a set of guidelines for acceptable behaviour that reflect and take into account the basic concepts of right and wrong rather than reflecting the whim and desire of an elite class. At worst, and in a more evolved society it becomes one of the pillars of authoritarian rule."

    Words like "right" "moral" "fair" or "just" have nothing to do with laws. These words never have been a factor. Laws are made by and enforced by government bodies with the intent of preventing actions deemed injurious to the government or to the society in general. As far as changing them is concerned, private citizens have no real control of their governments in any country on Earth. All governments are oligarchies and are controlled by a ruling class of people and organizations. The United States was actually designed this way by the framers of the Constitution, in particular Hamilton and the Federalists. We citizens, as have the citizens of all countries, have been "educated' with a fairy tale of "Government of the People." In fact the man who uttered those words was possibly the worst dictator this country has suffered and he trashed the Bill of Rights during his "reign." We are just fortunate that this country is so large that a good portion of wealth has filtered down to the working class and the merchant middle class. Any chance at changing our situation by action evaporated in 1865 and was futher stifled in the 1930's. We are locked into the two party system and as private citizens we have no meaningful input to that system. Short version is break the law and go to jail. Defying the law is not an option, just a foolish endeavor.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  10. #55
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    Far out and interesting observations. Food for thought. I like them.

  11. #56
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    NY gun laws are completely asinine and unjustifiable. Unfortunately, I think this particular case will only reinforce them in the courtroom. This Marine will likely to go jail for nothing, and that is a real shame.
    Actually the Marine will go to jail for committing a crime. And there is nothing shameful about that. It is justice being done.

    Can anyone explain why the man being a Marine, is at all relevant to this?

  12. #57
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    I don't know that I would say its justice being done. I would say it is the logical outcome of violating the law. If the law is unjust, as I believe this one to be, I would not say its enforcement is justice being done.
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  13. #58
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    I don't know that I would say its justice being done. I would say it is the logical outcome of violating the law. If the law is unjust, as I believe this one to be, I would not say its enforcement is justice being done.
    Justice and Law are not mutually inclusive terms.
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  14. #59
    Distinguished Member Array Toorop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    I don't know that I would say its justice being done. I would say it is the logical outcome of violating the law. If the law is unjust, as I believe this one to be, I would not say its enforcement is justice being done.
    Then people can say that about anything. Mafia justice is just as valid. They have rules and laws that need to be followed, and when you break them it is the logical conclusion that you will get punished. Morals are not relevant to the law for everyone. Ancient people thought might makes right, so if a stronger person came and took your food, well it was right. The law of the jungle if you will.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Morals are not relevant to the law for everyone.
    There are some US senators and representatives that need a lesson in this one then as they are currently trying to push a means of control on other people under the guise of being "against ones morals", even worse, they are trying to claim that corporations have constitutional rights and morals.

    In the abstract sense, you are correct that law is independent of justice, morals, or even fundamental right and wrong for that matter. Morality is also different than right and wrong as it is subject to the beliefs of the individual. Well, actually, now that I think about that last sentence, I think so to is right and wrong (subject to the beliefs of the individual).

    Ancient people thought might makes right, so if a stronger person came and took your food, well it was right. The law of the jungle if you will.
    This would seem to be true about modern law enforcement, which is certainly enforced by might makes right. One could even say this about governments in general, both in terms of how they exert their will and whether or not they are able to exist as an entity.

    In the case of NY gun laws, they may be law, but I don't see them as fair or just, or even right. They are also being enforced via might makes right.

    I have no plans or desires to go to NY and would only do so if absolutely required. If I were to go, I would comply with their stupid laws. While it is extremely unlikely that I would ever be as I would never live there, were I on a jury in this case, the words jury nullification would never leave my mouth but they would certainly be paramount in guiding my actions. Just because it is law doesn't mean that I am going to help enforce it, especially when I believe it is wrong.

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