Marine says NO! - Page 5

Marine says NO!

This is a discussion on Marine says NO! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Posted by noway2: "I have no plans or desires to go to NY and would only do so if absolutely required. If I were to ...

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  1. #61
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Posted by noway2: "I have no plans or desires to go to NY and would only do so if absolutely required. If I were to go, I would comply with their stupid laws. While it is extremely unlikely that I would ever be as I would never live there, were I on a jury in this case, the words jury nullification would never leave my mouth but they would certainly be paramount in guiding my actions. Just because it is law doesn't mean that I am going to help enforce it, especially when I believe it is wrong."

    IMHO, this is the proper attitude and stance. I have served on juries and I have been obstinate on several of them and I believe I switched the verdict on at least two of them. I was practicing nullification without openly saying it. It can be a very strong personal value and can be effective if you have the courage to adhere to your principles. Openly defying the law is not effective, as the establishment has way too much power it can use to stop and hurt you.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    IMHO, this is the proper attitude and stance. I have served on juries and I have been obstinate on several of them and I believe I switched the verdict on at least two of them. I was practicing nullification without openly saying it. It can be a very strong personal value and can be effective if you have the courage to adhere to your principles. Openly defying the law is not effective, as the establishment has way too much power it can use to stop and hurt you.
    Be careful of jury nullification or getting on a jury with the purpose of disobeying the judges orders. Yeah, it sounds like a patriotic thing to do and a feel good thing. But I am sure the juries that acquitted whites killing and raping blacks in our history thought they were doing the right thing also. I am NOT equating the severity of the crimes at all. Just using it as an example to show how anarchy can cause problems. I ask you, would you like to have somebody on a jury that is a member of NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Assoiciation) on a trial for sex molestation? Don't be shaking your heads. That person honestly believes (wrongly in this case) that there should be no laws for adults having sex with children. He would obviously be in favor of the defendant.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Array wjh2657's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Be careful of jury nullification or getting on a jury with the purpose of disobeying the judges orders. Yeah, it sounds like a patriotic thing to do and a feel good thing. But I am sure the juries that acquitted whites killing and raping blacks in our history thought they were doing the right thing also. I am NOT equating the severity of the crimes at all. Just using it as an example to show how anarchy can cause problems. I ask you, would you like to have somebody on a jury that is a member of NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Assoiciation) on a trial for sex molestation? Don't be shaking your heads. That person honestly believes (wrongly in this case) that there should be no laws for adults having sex with children. He would obviously be in favor of the defendant.
    This is exactly why we have jury trials. You are tried by a jury of your peers. They do not need need legal credentials. They should not be an integral part of the establishment that is trying you. They are to evaluate ,as normal human beings, all factors, to include legality, evidence or lack of evidence that you actually committed the crime and extenuating factors of the crime. I know that the legal profession (Prosecutors and judges) always instruct that a jury is to consider only evidence, but that is not true. A jury is allowed to consider all factors. You make it sound like the jury should be stacked to bring in a guilty verdict. Innocent until proved guilty is the spirit of jury law.
    Retired Marine, Retired School Teacher, Independent voter, Goldwater Conservative.

  4. #64
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wjh2657 View Post
    This is exactly why we have jury trials. You are tried by a jury of your peers. They do not need need legal credentials. They should not be an integral part of the establishment that is trying you. They are to evaluate ,as normal human beings, all factors, to include legality, evidence or lack of evidence that you actually committed the crime and extenuating factors of the crime. I know that the legal profession (Prosecutors and judges) always instruct that a jury is to consider only evidence, but that is not true. A jury is allowed to consider all factors. You make it sound like the jury should be stacked to bring in a guilty verdict. Innocent until proved guilty is the spirit of jury law.
    Where in the world did you get that from. It is further from the truth. You obviously missed my point. Just because someone does not beleive in a law (drug use, whatever) does not mean it is OK to nullify a jury based purely on your beliefs. What kind of system would that be? There are many laws I do not agree with but as a juror like you said, you have certain duties which are spelled out by the judge. A jury nullification is when the entire jury feels a person should not be punished for a crime.so I will leave it there. Now, since you made that bold statement I would like you to explain why you think the jury should be stacked to bring a guilty verdict.
    One final thought. More people are set free that have committed a crime than have gone to jail that have not committed a crime. Our system works for the most part if the 'professional" do their job correctly and ethicly and so does the jury. When a jury decides to no obey the judges orders and ignore the law because of personal feelings and predujuices you get what happened earlier in this century. Blacks getting convicted of crimes by a jury when they were innocent and the opposite, whites going free when they were guilty. I know our system is not perfect.

  5. #65
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    This guy IMHO should have taken the deal.
    A lot of people fail to realise that certain aspects of the case a Jury will never hear.The Jury will be presented with facts and the facts will be that the Defendent knowingly and willfully carried a concealed handgun into a State that he is not licensed to carry in,doesn't matter if he was confused by his Iphone App etc.The DA will hammer home that he should know the laws regarding to the carrying of his handgun if he is responsible enough to carry it.
    genauwiedu likes this.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  6. #66
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Where in the world did you get that from. It is further from the truth. You obviously missed my point. Just because someone does not beleive in a law (drug use, whatever) does not mean it is OK to nullify a jury based purely on your beliefs. What kind of system would that be? There are many laws I do not agree with but as a juror like you said, you have certain duties which are spelled out by the judge. A jury nullification is when the entire jury feels a person should not be punished for a crime.so I will leave it there. Now, since you made that bold statement I would like you to explain why you think the jury should be stacked to bring a guilty verdict.
    One final thought. More people are set free that have committed a crime than have gone to jail that have not committed a crime. Our system works for the most part if the 'professional" do their job correctly and ethicly and so does the jury. When a jury decides to no obey the judges orders and ignore the law because of personal feelings and predujuices you get what happened earlier in this century. Blacks getting convicted of crimes by a jury when they were innocent and the opposite, whites going free when they were guilty. I know our system is not perfect.
    If there is no victim to a "crime" then there is no real crime committed. This is basic Natural Law. Any such law should be nullified because there is no moral reason for it to exist. In the case of blacks being lynched....obviously they were victims of the most extreme violence, and do not fall under what I am saying. This would all be a moot point in the absence of idiotic laws like this. The only restrictions the government at ANY level has ANY business putting in place are those on activities that will DIRECTLY harm others (fraud, initiation of violence, etc.). All other laws have no justification to exist whatsoever. The more such laws are passed, the more there will be the "anarchy" you fear.
    gigamortis likes this.

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    If there is no victim to a "crime" then there is no real crime committed. This is basic Natural Law. Any such law should be nullified because there is no moral reason for it to exist. In the case of blacks being lynched....obviously they were victims of the most extreme violence, and do not fall under what I am saying. This would all be a moot point in the absence of idiotic laws like this. The only restrictions the government at ANY level has ANY business putting in place are those on activities that will DIRECTLY harm others (fraud, initiation of violence, etc.). All other laws have no justification to exist whatsoever. The more such laws are passed, the more there will be the "anarchy" you fear.
    Don't twist my words and my intent. I never used the word fear. I believed I said
    ust using it as an example to show how anarchy can cause problems
    . I happened to look at a theseraus and "cause problems" did not come up when I typed in fear. So please, if you quote me next time feel free to do so without the author induced hyperbole.I will leave it at that. No further trying to explain something in a post if you will make up words and attribute them to me.

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Don't twist my words and my intent. I never used the word fear. I believed I said . I happened to look at a theseraus and "cause problems" did not come up when I typed in fear. So please, if you quote me next time feel free to do so without the author induced hyperbole.I will leave it at that. No further trying to explain something in a post if you will make up words and attribute them to me.
    Wow. You are stretching. If that is all you have to try and base a response on, my last two words....well, try harder next time. You can start by actually reading the rest of my post. Your hyberbolic post that goes straight to the race card leaves little doubt that I used the appropriate words in my response.

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