Enemies Foreign & Domestic

This is a discussion on Enemies Foreign & Domestic within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Hopyard if you don't understand the difference between paper money and coined money (in precious metals, not the worthless copper tokens the modern $1 coins ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Hopyard if you don't understand the difference between paper money and coined money (in precious metals, not the worthless copper tokens the modern $1 coins are), as expressly called for in the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, you need to take quite a few economics lessons. Calling paper money a product of the FREE MARKET is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in quite a while. Again, brush up on your history. Currency debasement has been bringing down great civilizations, and the freedoms of those who live in them, since ancient Athens was a major player on the world stage. Just because this is now, and this is America, does not repeal the basic laws of economics. When currencies finally collapse it happens quickly and seemingly without warning.

    Once again, the Federal Reserve and its paper currency is but one of many examples of the federal government stretching well beyond what the Constitution authorizes. I would challenge you to actually go and find the constitutional authorization for some of the "sacred cows", such as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the EPA, Dept of Education, and, everyone's favorite here, the ATF. These things mostly rest on a tortured reading of the commerce clause and general welfare clause, and to anyone who bothers to both read those clauses and the documents of the time that explained them, the error quickly becomes clear. It is undeniably an overwhelming problem, but putting one's head in the sand and acting like the government is doing everything it's supposed to be doing won't help anything.


  2. #32
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    FWIW-- I removed all my posts after Dave H's post #17. On review, I realized I was causing much of the
    conversation to veer too far afoot from the OP's issue.

    It was great entertainment writing that stuff, but it doesn't need to be here.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Hopyard if you don't understand the difference between paper money and coined money (in precious metals, not the worthless copper tokens the modern $1 coins are), as expressly called for in the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, you need to take quite a few economics lessons. Calling paper money a product of the FREE MARKET is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in quite a while. Again, brush up on your history. Currency debasement has been bringing down great civilizations, and the freedoms of those who live in them, since ancient Athens was a major player on the world stage. Just because this is now, and this is America, does not repeal the basic laws of economics. When currencies finally collapse it happens quickly and seemingly without warning.

    Once again, the Federal Reserve and its paper currency is but one of many examples of the federal government stretching well beyond what the Constitution authorizes. I would challenge you to actually go and find the constitutional authorization for some of the "sacred cows", such as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, the EPA, Dept of Education, and, everyone's favorite here, the ATF. These things mostly rest on a tortured reading of the commerce clause and general welfare clause, and to anyone who bothers to both read those clauses and the documents of the time that explained them, the error quickly becomes clear. It is undeniably an overwhelming problem, but putting one's head in the sand and acting like the government is doing everything it's supposed to be doing won't help anything.
    Well said! Here is a GREAT little video clip, Hopyard to help you understand the history of this issue and how it affects all of us. I got this from one of my 8th grade students!
    The American Dream By The Provocateur Network - YouTube

    NOW can we ALL remember the original REASON I posted this? Join the REVOLUTION and spread the word to all your friends and other gun sites about this important cause. Ask everybody to download the book (FREE REMEMBER) onto their KINDLES tomorrow!!!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #34
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    Entertaining video clip - if somewhat flawed. Don't get me wrong, I am no Fed backer, and I think we should eliminate it. BUT EO11110 killed silver certificates in favor of allowing the Fed to print $1 bills. The video appears to have bought into conspiracy theorys based on an inaccurate read of EO11110.

    BTW, I do plan to download the book.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  5. #35
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    We have always had and used paper money on this continent; it was in circulation in one form or another well before
    the Declaration of Independence. It was there when each colony and later each state printed in one form or another, or caused to be printed by various institutions, money for circulation. The word "coin" does not literally mean a coin and it does not literally mean a coin of gold or of any other precious metal. You can make coins from cow manure and epoxy resin and that would be constitutional. In today's world coins have literally become digital information. Money is a symbol of value, not something of value.

    There are demagogues who somehow believe that going back to a gold standard would be wise. It would not. The gold standard is precisely something which held back economic development on this continent until it was abolished.

    The Gold-Silver-Paper issue has been contentious since the start. Our first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton, the main author of The Federalist Papers, was a paper money guy. Contrary to assertions that the Federalists opposed paper money (something claimed in an earlier post) they actually admired The Bank of England as a central bank and sought to establish a similar institution here.

    During Washington's first term in office, a political and personal split developed between former allies-- Jefferson, Madison, Adams, and Hamilton. The split was largely over the nature of money. So this discussion is as old as the hills as it were.

    Politics of the 1790-93 variety got extremely ugly. It got extremely vicious. But, no less a figure than Hamilton -- The Federalist's lead dude--- was a paper money man. And he knew a thing or three about the original intent of the constitution; often serving as Washington's main adviser on that issue.

    I'm not going to say more, as I noted above I deleted several posts because this has been dragged way off topic to this money thing, and far far from what Ex-Soldier wanted discussed.

    Suggested reading for those who want to know and understand: Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow.




    Over and out of this thread.
    Rock and Glock and Sig 210 like this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Coin specifically meant gold and silver. Hamilton "paper money advocate" you speak of specifically denounces paper money in the Federalist Papers; I would invite you to go back and actually read them again. Paper money RECEIPTS, which is what they used after the ratification, and modern paper money (which is much the same as the paper money that circulated prior to, during, and immediately after the Revolution, as I already said), are much different, whether you want to acknowledge the difference or not. The kind of "history" you're trying to spread here follows the same logic as those who would call 2A a "collective" right because it says militia on there. It's blatantly false, as is the notion that the gold standard prevented economic growth. This kind of nonsensical thinking is leading us to do all kinds of dumb things in this country, and the kind of increasingly large government that is fueled by this paper money is most definitely a threat to all our freedoms, firearms included. It's time to abandon this line of thinking and return to what the Constitution actually says, not what we think it should say. That would mean, at the federal level certainly, no gun controls whatsoever, among many other federal functions that need to go away because they are not authorized. And yes, gold or silver money IS what is authorized. There is no authority to emit bills of credit, which is exactly what a Federal Reserve Note is.

    However, as you stated already, well beyond the thread. So if you want to continue an economic debate in PM I'd do it, but this will be my last post on this one as well.

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    peckman28, just PLEASE download the book and urge everybody you know on other boards to do the same!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  8. #38
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    Just downloaded my copy. Thanks once again.

  9. #39
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    FYI: If you do not own a Kindle, you can still download the Kindle reader to your PC or laptop and download books. There are also thousands of books that are free. Wife and I abuse the heck out of our Kindles.

  10. #40
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    suntzu, I am also abusing the heck out my kindle. I've had it for two months now. I downloaded kindle for PC for my boat before buying the actual kindle. I just finished reading Enemies Foreign and Domestic and the other two books in the trilogy. Any of the three can be read independent of each other. I enjoyed the novels by Matthew Bracken. After reading all the above posts I'd like to recommend the book "Web of Debt"for the history and some current facts of our fiat monetary system. I have no connections with any of these books or the authors.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array tbrenke's Avatar
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    Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #14,345 in Books
    "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution, which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents." -1792, James Madison
    There are always too many Democratic, Republican and never enough U.S. congressmen.

  12. #42
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    Well, I just finished the book. Fun read. Well developed plot and characters. The only thing I thought was wierd was that the helo pilot was flying left seat and that is where the only controls were. Maybe this is how euro copters work - I don't know, but the book is fiction anyway. It was hard to put down and certainly held my attention.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Well said! Here is a GREAT little video clip, Hopyard to help you understand the history of this issue and how it affects all of us. I got this from one of my 8th grade students!
    The American Dream By The Provocateur Network - YouTube

    NOW can we ALL remember the original REASON I posted this? Join the REVOLUTION and spread the word to all your friends and other gun sites about this important cause. Ask everybody to download the book (FREE REMEMBER) onto their KINDLES tomorrow!!!
    No revolution thank you Mr. Ex.

    Unless you meant the Kindle/e-book revolution.

    And I don't need help understanding the history of this or any other issue. I know how to read, am an avid reader, and am a history and biography buff.

    You are what The Federalists called Jacobins; an unflattering reference to the lunatics who caused a blood bath in France.

    WHile you might find the notion insane, since they are described by Wiki as "a revolutionary far-left political movement," and you certainly don't think of yourself as a leftist,
    your constant call here for revolution and preparation for the same, your misguided insult of our present system as "unconstitutional," clearly put you in the mistaken "revolutionary" mode of folks who prefer to destroy instead of build our country.

    I guess that is as harsh as I dare go, and perhaps too harsh for a board where we are asked to not bicker, especially over politics.

    No thank you to you guys who want revolution, and arm yourselves for it. You are all misguided.

    I thought I was on your ignore list Ex?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arejay View Post
    suntzu, I am also abusing the heck out my kindle. I've had it for two months now. I downloaded kindle for PC for my boat before buying the actual kindle. I just finished reading Enemies Foreign and Domestic and the other two books in the trilogy. Any of the three can be read independent of each other. I enjoyed the novels by Matthew Bracken. After reading all the above posts I'd like to recommend the book "Web of Debt"for the history and some current facts of our fiat monetary system. I have no connections with any of these books or the authors.
    Just so folks know, and I too have no stake in this sort of business, you can download Kindle apps for PC for iMac, for iphone, and of course use a Kindle reader. All of advantages and disadvantages; each works a tad differently from the other.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    I highly recommend the next two books in the trilogy as well as Matt's 4th book Castigo Cay. But the next two books in the EFAD trilogy are riveting to say the least.

    Enemies Foreign and Domestic Web Site OR you can order them from amazon.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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