Rep. Issa Pushing Contempt Order Against Eric Holder - Page 13

Rep. Issa Pushing Contempt Order Against Eric Holder

This is a discussion on Rep. Issa Pushing Contempt Order Against Eric Holder within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Good grief. IT was about breaking up the drug cartel violence in Mexico for heavens sake. That is righteous law enforcement. ...

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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Good grief. IT was about breaking up the drug cartel violence in Mexico for heavens sake.
    That is righteous law enforcement.

    Why read conspiratorial anti-gun stuff into an ordinary criminal investigation about illegal gun sales and cross border gun traffic? You know, sometimes things really are exactly what they
    seem and exactly about what they are supposed to be.
    Why do you assume anti-democrat conspiracies into ordinary investigative findings and righteous rebukes of unfit candidates for office? Perhaps the reason congress has not approved the nominees is because they are unfit or biased, and not in order to create this grand conspiracy to discredit the acting IG and thereby assault the position of AG and the president.

    Sometimes things really are what they seem and exactly about what they are supposed to be. Maybe Issa is doing exactly what he should be with no alterior motives.

    We could ask both sides to open their minds a little, see less conspiracies and less malice in their "opponents"/colleagues. But just because people call you a conspiracy theorist, doesn't mean your theories are not correct.
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  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    I'm sorry, I do not see it that way.
    The F&F was a scheme cooked up by the GDubya Bush administration, supposedly to snare those in the Drug Cartels. There was a break down in the process under Holder and the present regime that resulted in the death of US LEO's at the hands of guns that (to my understanding) were supposedly destroyed, not supposedly used in F&F, but are now being claimed as being involved in F&F. Holder is refusing to turn over documents that would clear things up on that question as well as others.

    I will correct my earlier statement that the Committee voted to hold Holder in Contempt.. I was mistaken, the Committee voted to recommend that Holder be held in Contempt.. Not the same thing but close. He has not yet been held in Contempt.

    Goes to show you are almost too ignorant to engage in a rational discussion; the operation under "W" was called "Operation Wide Receiver" and was done jointly with the Mexican government, but due to Mexican incompetence or corruption most if not all the guns were lost so the operation was terminated.

    ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]
    Operation fast & Furious was done without Mexican cooperation or even knowledge; absolutely no attempt was made to follow the weapons to their final destination just a hope to find them at crime scenes and try to determine where they had been.

    Is it not curious that at this same time the Obummer admin. was making all the noise about how many guns found at Mexican crime scenes originated in the US as a bases to impose additional gun control measures???????????

    I would hate to see Holder tried in the US for contempt; I would rather see him extradited to Mexico for gun smuggling and do his time in a Mexican prison

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Goes to show you are almost too ignorant to engage in a rational discussion; the operation under "W" was called "Operation Wide Receiver" and was done jointly with the Mexican government, but due to Mexican incompetence or corruption most if not all the guns were lost so the operation was terminated.

    ATF gunwalking scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]

    Operation fast & Furious was done without Mexican cooperation or even knowledge; absolutely no attempt was made to follow the weapons to their final destination just a hope to find them at crime scenes and try to determine where they had been.

    Is it not curious that at this same time the Obummer admin. was making all the noise about how many guns found at Mexican crime scenes originated in the US as a bases to impose additional gun control measures???????????

    I would hate to see Holder tried in the US for contempt; I would rather see him extradited to Mexico for gun smuggling and do his time in a Mexican prison
    Are you sure of that?

    As for what may or may not be curious, I know what my personal beliefs are as to motives behind the Obama Administration actions, but voicing them is simply speculation and not fact unless you have credible source citations to support your contentions. Speaking of credible sources, having seen a teenager who wanted to get out of doing homework completely gut the teachers Wikipedia reference, showed me just why that site is not trustworthy and is why I do not accept it as credible. Though even in your own source citation, we find the following.
    According to ATF field agents involved in Operation Fast and Furious, a part of Project Gunrunner "ATF agents were trained to interdict guns and prevent criminals from obtaining them" and not to allow guns to walk and then disappear
    The way I read this, Operation F & F was a component part of Project Gunrunner. Which will be mentioned again further on.

    Getting back to facts, there have been various programs/projects/operations however you wish to refer to them, gun-running/gun-walking/wide-receiver/fast-&-furious and others we probably do not know about yet. All based upon the same basic "scheme" of allowing weapons into Mexico with the expectation that we would be able to use them to expose and ultimately bring down the Drug Cartels.
    The first of them I am aware of came about during G.W Bush's administration. Unless you have evidence that these started earlier than that. If not, then my statement is still very much accurate contrary to your disparagement of me when you called me ignorant.
    Most Americans had no idea that these programs even existed until the Obama administration gloated over their support of operation gun-runner, the one that was active at that time. Here is a link to a written transcript of that March 2009 briefing.
    Press Briefing by Napolitano, Steinberg and Ogden on U.S.-Mexico Border Security Policy - Council on Foreign Relations
    Please pay close attention to how Janet Napolitano states:
    There are a number of issues involved, a number of actions being undertaken by DHS in conjunction with the Department of State, the Department of Justice, with respect to Mexico. And I'm just going to go through a whole inventory of actions that are underway. Some we have already undertaken in the last several weeks; others are being taken either today or in the immediate future.
    And if you wish to view that briefing, so that you may listen to it, here is a link to it at C-Span.
    U.S.-Mexico Border Security Policy - C-SPAN Video Library
    Now, based upon an article I came across last October, Janet Napolitano knew about F&F in 2009! How could she have known that then unless is was a part of Project Gunrunner? Well according to the following link: Let me quote it..
    Homeland Security chief Janet Napolitano actually helped launch the previous incarnation of the program, Project Gunrunner, at a White House press conference in March 2009.
    » Napolitano Knew About Fast and Furious In 2009 Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
    This link indicates that F&F is an incarnation of Project Gunrunner, rather than a component part of it. But in your own source citation we find that Operation F&F was an operation under Project Gunrunner.

    Confused yet? Why do you think Rep Issa and the Republicans on the Committee are being so insistent that Holder turn over the documents?

    Now, since I am so ignorant according to you, I ask that you show me where these are not related in any way.
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; June 22nd, 2012 at 09:36 PM. Reason: typo correction/fixed a quote
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  4. #184
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    So much for "the white house invented Operation Fast and Furious". In his 3 May, 2012 memo to his committee Issa says F&F was devised at the Phoenix office of the BATFE. Yep, someone at the house DOJ approved of F&F: Who? See page 4 of Issas memo:

    http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...ment-FINAL.pdf
    Last edited by Sig 210; June 23rd, 2012 at 07:53 AM.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    So much for "the white house invented Operation Fast and Furious". In his 3 May, 2012 memo to his committee Issa says F&F was devised at the Phoenix office of the BATFE. Yep, someone at the house DOJ approved of F&F: Who? See page 4 of Issas memo:

    http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...ment-FINAL.pdf
    Good reading material, answers a few questions and presents more. Thank you for posting it.

    I find it very interesting how on page 4 under Fast and Furious Conceived it states:
    In January 2010, ATF partnered with the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Arizona and applied to Justice Department headquarters in Washington for funding through the Department’s Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) program. As senior Justice Department officials in Washington felt the operation had great promise, it won approval and additional funding. Operation Fast and Furious was reorganized as a Strike Force including agents from ATF, FBI, the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) component of the Department of Homeland Security.
    Followed by:
    The Strike Force designation also meant that the U.S. Attorney’s Office – rather than ATF –would run Fast and Furious.
    Yet Holder was initially claiming no knowledge. Being the senior official in that office.. his lack of knowledge (if that is true) shows that he is a poor choice for the position to begin with.
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  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    IMO, if we stay on the present path Congress has chosen, justice can not be served. If they get the
    heck out of the way of the Insepector General's Office, justice WILL be served. Its that simple.
    Let the pros do it, or let the clowns play with it and get nowhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    So much for "the white house invented Operation Fast and Furious". In his 3 May, 2012 memo to his committee Issa says F&F was devised at the Phoenix office of the BATFE. Yep, someone at the house DOJ approved of F&F: Who? See page 4 of Issas memo:

    http://oversight.house.gov/wp-conten...ment-FINAL.pdf


    If you will read the MEMO that Sig 210 posted, you will find that Whistle-blowers had contacted the IG attempting to get the IG to do something and the IG ignored it. So idea of leaving it in the hands of the IG at this point is tantamount to imbecilic or major irresponsibility.
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  7. #187
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    Thank you for posting it.
    You are very welcome.

    Dennis Burke was the federal prosecutor for AZ who approved Fast and Furious. Burke was a long time anti-gunner and a co-architect of the infamous "assault weapons" ban under Clinton. Burke was a federal prosecutor when Napolitano ran DOJ. Burke was a top aide to Napolitano when she was governor of AZ. He was also an aide to Napolitano at Homeland Security: Conclusion: Good chance Napolitano knew. The lead agency of Fast and Furious was the DOJ. Conclusion: Good chance Holder knew.
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  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    If you will read the MEMO that Sig 210 posted, you will find that Whistle-blowers had contacted the IG attempting to get the IG to do something and the IG ignored it. So idea of leaving it in the hands of the IG at this point is tantamount to imbecilic or major irresponsibility.
    Keep in mind that what Sig posted is Issa's viewpoint, and not necessarily the reality.
    Also, merely because someone in an office in Justice approved the operation, by no means demonstrates
    that Holder knew a thing about it; or even that the approving officer had all the details. These organizations are huge, multilayered, and have complex organizational
    charts. It would be wrong to make an assumption that the approval was made at that high a level in the organization.

    I do not know why --if it is even true-- that the IG would not pay attention to the "whistleblower," but
    the law does require that the complaint be credible. I don't know who made it, in what manner, and
    whether or not there were issues of credibility involved.

    At this point the IG is still the best approach to getting to the bottom of what happened and actually
    learning the truth. A partisan motivated investigation conducted by Critter Clowns won't get the job done.

    There have been some posts regarding Napolitano and the timing and what she knew and when, and frankly
    I can not follow the arguments that are being made. In fact it seemed to me that 3 people who share
    the same basic concern and feelings about F&F. specifically Sig 210, LkWd, and F350 are arguing
    against each others assertions in post 182-183-184. After reading all of that stuff I no longer have a clue
    what positions any of you are taking except that you think you know something went wrong (we all agree) and you
    are each generally inclined to blame Holder; which is where I get off the train.
    Last edited by Hopyard; June 23rd, 2012 at 08:43 PM. Reason: two spelling fixes
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    ....After reading all of that stuff I no longer have a clue
    what positions any of you are taking except that you think you know something went wrong (we all agree) and you
    are each generally inclined to blame Holder; which is where I get off the train.
    My position, and I think the position of many of us, is that F&F was wrong from the start and, given the history of Wide Receiver, should never have been undertaken.
    If F&F had a legitimate purpose, where are the suspects that it was suppossed to catch? Maybe the IG can answer that if Holder won't provide the information to our elected officials. We have a right to results for our expense of resources not to mention the endagerment of our agents.
    At least the discussion is to the point of the question, "Who knew what when?" That is as it should be.
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  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    My position, and I think the position of many of us, is that F&F was wrong from the start and, given the history of Wide Receiver, should never have been undertaken.
    If F&F had a legitimate purpose, where are the suspects that it was suppossed to catch? Maybe the IG can answer that if Holder won't provide the information to our elected officials. We have a right to results for our expense of resources not to mention the endagerment of our agents.
    At least the discussion is to the point of the question, "Who knew what when?" That is as it should be.
    Response to part in bold; So next time your house is burgled and the detectives spend 20,000 of city money
    searching for the culprits, you'll say they didn't have a legitimate purpose because, "where are are the suspects?"

    No one is disputing that things got botched. Let the IG figure out how it got botched, who is responsible,
    and let HR and OMB mete out the appropriate punishments; and if need be, let those directly involved
    be sued in civil court for the death which resulted from what might have been an illegal (if not just dumb) plan.
    But what we are getting instead is political theater which will keep us from answers, not get them.

    Holder provided all the information on the affair. What he has refused to turn over is protected materials
    on Executive deliberations. If any President were to yield to a Congressional committee on the latter issue,
    they would cause irrevocable harm to the Separation of Powers and to the future power of the presidency.

    There is a lot at stake here and it has nothing to do with the lack of wisdom of the F&F plan. It has to do
    with whether or not (turn this on its head) a President could march into the room where the 9 Justices are
    deliberating and seize their papers; or them. Absurd you say? Well, there is nothing in Constitution that
    forbids such except what is implied by Separation of Powers. It has to be guarded jealously. F&F was an
    Executive function gone bad and it need to be investigated by the proper authorities--- the IG--- and not
    political clowns.
    Last edited by Hopyard; June 23rd, 2012 at 08:44 PM. Reason: inserted "the" before "suspects
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  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Response to part in bold; So next time your house is burgled and the detectives spend 20,000 of city money
    searching for the culprits, you'll say they didn't have a legitimate purpose because, "where are are the suspects?"
    The analogy is more like a detectives' spending $20K of city money in ordering local hardware stores to sell burglary tools to burglars during a burglary epidemic to no effect on improvement in crime all coming to light only because a whistleblower goes to the elected city council who tries to investigate whether or not the top cop and the mayor are party to the insanity and being told that it's privileged information. There's no legitimacy about any of the plan or the government's limited response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    No one is disputing that things got botched. Let the IG figure out how it got botched, who is responsible, and let HR and OMB mete out the appropriate punishments; and if need be, let those directly involved
    be sued in civil court for the death which resulted from what might have been an illegal (if not just dumb) plan. But what we are getting instead is political theater which will keep us from answers, not get them.

    Holder provided all the information on the affair. What he has refused to turn over is protected materials
    on Executive deliberations. If any President were to yield to a Congressional committee on the latter issue,
    they would cause irrevocable harm to the Separation of Powers and to the future power of the presidency.
    HR=House of Representatives? OMB=Office of Management and Budget?

    Holder is not disputing the tradgedy and folly of Fast and Furious. You want to treat the crime that is Fast and Furious as a legitimate operation gone wrong - possibly criminally wrong. I want to investigate the larger issue of the deception of a people by its government. For that, I need more than Holder's and Obama's limits to my right to know. I trust that elected officials like those on the Oversight and Government Reform Committe, sworn to protect the Constitution, are cabable of analyzing and maintaining discretion in release of material sensitive to legitimate law enforcement as distinct from criminal coverup of illegitimate activity. After all, Congress has oversight of the super-secret security agencies. The key is "Oversight".

    Like the depression and WWII were the formative years of my parents, Vietnam, police abuses, and Watergate were mine. Leaving me wanting are secret investigations of what is clearly more than a case of bad decisions by field agents.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    There is a lot at stake here and it has nothing to do with the lack of wisdom of the F&F plan. It has to do with whether or not (turn this on its head) a President could march into the room where the 9 Justices are
    deliberating and seize their papers; or them. Absurd you say? Well, there is nothing in Constitution that
    forbids such except what is implied by Separation of Powers. It has to be guarded jealously. F&F was an
    Executive function gone bad and it need to be investigated by the proper authorities--- the IG--- and not
    political clowns.
    You turn it on its head to assume that the justices, officers of the highest court, are guilty until proven innocent when there is a crime to investigate here on a level of playing fast and loose with legitimate authority - if not the Bill of Rights - with tragic results. And don't forget, we are in the midst of an undeclared, "War on Drugs" of which Fast and Furious was supposed to be a mission of justice. Pathetic.

    One last aside, you drop comments about our elected officials ("critters") and our democratic process ("silly season") that might not reflect well on you if you were tried under your pet, Alien and Sedition Act; and sometimes I wonder which you are.
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  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Keep in mind that what Sig posted is Issa's viewpoint, and not necessarily the reality.
    Also, merely because someone in an office in Justice approved the operation, by no means demonstrates
    that Holder knew a thing about it; or even that the approving officer had all the details. These organizations are huge, multilayered, and have complex organizational
    charts. It would be wrong to make an assumption that the approval was made at that high a level in the organization.

    I do not know why --if it is even true-- that the IG would not pay attention to the "whistleblower," but
    the law does require that the complaint be credible. I don't know who made it, in what manner, and
    whether or not there were issues of credibility involved.

    At this point the IG is still the best approach to getting to the bottom of what happened and actually
    learning the truth. A partisan motivated investigation conducted by Critter Clowns won't get the job done.

    There have been some posts regarding Napolitano and the timing and what she knew and when, and frankly
    I can not follow the arguments that are being made. In fact it seemed to me that 3 people who share
    the same basic concern and feelings about F&F. specifically Sig 210, LkWd, and F350 are arguing
    against each others assertions in post 182-183-184. After reading all of that stuff I no longer have a clue
    what positions any of you are taking except that you think you know something went wrong (we all agree) and you
    are each generally inclined to blame Holder; which is where I get off the train.
    I would view what Rep Issa was writing was in fact a condensed report based upon the information presented during testimony to the Committee and himself from more than one source and not simply based solely upon his own thoughts as a mere opinion would be.

    You're not knowing the names of agents who testified and were the whisleblowers is testament to either your not having read or not comprehending the Memo as the Names of Two Agents was given as well as the fact that they had started by initiating their complaints to unsympathetic supervisors more than once before going outside of the BATF with their concerns.

    By your standards then, I would conclude that you belive the senior officer of any agency or corporation has no responsibility to insure that the agency/corporation is operating within its established guidelines and has no supervisory, fiduciary/pecuniary or operational responsibility at all, simply because there are underlings to take the blame for everything. Is that what you are saying?

    As for your statement in reference to Sig 210, F350 and myself arguing, I might correct your statement in that I do not recall arguing with Sig 210 about F&F and I certainly am not arguing with myself.

    My discussion with F350 was brought about more by his inability to rationally discuss things like an adult (meaning without resorting to name calling) and to provide additional information contradicting his position, which even included a contradiction contained within his own source material/link.
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    This program was started in the Bush era. This particular Give away was started with the Obama era group. Most of the time when we give away, or furnish weapons to any foreign group...it gets turned around and bites us in the butt. My deepest concern...where is the explanation, apology, and restitution for the family of the slain border guard? That part of the story is shameful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by framedcraig1 View Post
    .... Most of the time when we give away, or furnish weapons to any foreign group...it gets turned around and bites us in the butt. My deepest concern...where is the explanation, apology, and restitution for the family of the slain border guard? That part of the story is shameful.
    Bites especially while at war with those recieving the weapons and who kill our agents with them. Holder is too tight-lipped to appease the Terry family, who suspect that Holder and Obama are denying the truth to them and to all U.S. citizens. Obama's EP hocus pocus has all the impact of a mosquito on a semi on the highway as the house takes from the Oversight and Government Reform Committee the question of Holder's contempt of congress.
    If Obama has nothing to hide, why play EP with its Constitution questions in an election year? He's a better politician than that. I, and I think a majority of voters, believe that Obama is admitting involvement in Fast and Furious and notwithstanding that EP is a radical and inappropriate measure in response to a standing committee's request for information in this case of a nation at war - war that's all too secret and already abusive of our most sacred rights.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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    If F&F had a legitimate purpose, where are the suspects that it was suppossed to catch?
    Very good question. The two primary gun running suspects were associates of a dope cartel: They may have been working for the FBI at the time of F&F. The FBI says both are "national security asstets"; they are untouchable. Federal prosecutors made plea deals with some "straw buyers".

    Cartel Informants Protected by FBI in ATF Fast and Furious Cases | Bisbee Net News

    The memorandum from staffers with the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform says the FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration were investigating a drug-trafficking organization and had identified cartel associates a year before the ATF even learned who they were. At some point before the ATF’s Fast and Furious investigation progressed — congressional investigators don’t know when — the cartel members became FBI informants.

    “These were the ‘big fish,’” says the memo, written on behalf of Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa. “DEA and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) had jointly opened a separate investigation targeting these two cartel associates….Yet, ATF spent the next year engaging in the reckless tactics of Fast and Furious in attempting to identify them.”

    According to Issa and Grassley, the cartel suspects, whose names were not released, were regarded by FBI as “national-security assets.” One pleaded guilty to a minor offense. The other was not charged. “Both became FBI informants and are now considered unindictable,” the memo says. “This means that the entire goal of Fast and Furious — to target these two individuals and bring them to justice — was a failure.”

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