Rep. Issa Pushing Contempt Order Against Eric Holder

This is a discussion on Rep. Issa Pushing Contempt Order Against Eric Holder within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; The most prolific "straw buyer" was one Uriel Patino. F&F investigators say that Patino bought about 720 guns. Azcentral - ATF operation focused on man ...

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Thread: Rep. Issa Pushing Contempt Order Against Eric Holder

  1. #196
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    The most prolific "straw buyer" was one Uriel Patino. F&F investigators say that Patino bought about 720 guns.

    Azcentral - ATF operation focused on man who bought more than 700 guns

    Before he was arrested in January, congressional investigators estimate that he purchased at least 720 firearms, 157 of which fell into the hands of Mexican drug cartel enforcers or other criminals on both sides of the U.S.-Mexican border.

    .................................................. .................................................. .......................................

    So far, 99 guns allegedly purchased by Patino have been recovered in the U.S., and 58 have been seized in Mexico, according to committee records.

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  3. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post

    Holder is not disputing the tradgedy and folly of Fast and Furious. You want to treat the crime that is Fast and Furious as a legitimate operation gone wrong - possibly criminally wrong. I want to investigate the larger issue of the deception of a people by its government.
    Ah, but you are assuming deception. Issa is assuming deception. That is the problem. That is what makes
    this a partisan political matter and not a normal oversight investigation.
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  4. #198
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    Done. Again as I have said before, if the lawmakers are committing crimes to catch criminals then who's the criminal. I suspect the 2nd amendment was a target as the release of the documents requested would just reveal a botched scheme to catch drug cartel members. I think it's so sad if thats what's really going on that Americans have to do Mexico's police work. They say if an orginaziation is corrupt in runs from the top down. I would have been satisfied with Holder turning over the documents...that is if he hasn't shredded them all by now. I hope criminal charges come of this if it's found to be a plot against the second amendment and for the straw purchase the government committed. If I did what they did I'd be too old to even pick up my Sig by the time I got out. I mean criminal charges for all, from the top down. You can't hid behind executive order if your out of order.
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  5. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post

    You turn it on its head to assume that the justices, officers of the highest court, are guilty until proven innocent when there is a crime to investigate here on a level of playing fast and loose with legitimate authority - if not the Bill of Rights - with tragic results. And don't forget, we are in the midst of an undeclared, "War on Drugs" of which Fast and Furious was supposed to be a mission of justice. Pathetic.

    One last aside, you drop comments about our elected officials ("critters") and our democratic process ("silly season") that might not reflect well on you if you were tried under your pet, Alien and Sedition Act; and sometimes I wonder which you are.
    First part in bold: I did nothing of the sort. I illustrated the mischief which could happen
    if each branch does not respect the Separation of Powers. Unlike Congress' arrest immunity,
    the court has no such protection built into our constitution. How about Congress investigating
    The Court? The EP claimed by the Pres is for the privilege of deliberative materials. DO you
    think Congress (lets say it flips to the Dems) should be able to seize SC deliberative materials to investigate how they reached a decision in Ciizens United, for example?

    Second part in bold: This is really irrelevant to the issue at hand -- it is a side note. It has no
    bearing on EP.

    Third note: Highly doubtful. Go and read the text. What it was aimed at was published libelous
    fabrications; such as the claim that the President or Holder knew about F&F; it wasn't aimed
    at or enforced against terms of "endearment" or mild criticism that didn't rise to the level of
    libel. Calling the President a non-citizen however would have been appropriately punished as the
    libel it is. Stating that Holder has knowledge of something and somehow colluded in a criminal
    manner with respect to F&F would have been punishable. Or, going back almost half a century,
    asserting that LBJ killed Kennedy, would have been punishable.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  6. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Ah, but you are assuming deception. Issa is assuming deception. That is the problem. That is what makes
    this a partisan political matter and not a normal oversight investigation.
    It matters not if it is a case of ineptitude, deception or outright criminal activity, DHS, DOJ, FBI, NSA, CIA, BATF, IRS, ICE and many other agencies within our Government were formed by Congress, receive their funding by our Congress and rightfully it falls to Congress to provide Oversight on these agencies.

    No Political Agenda needs to exist to insure that these departments/agencies operate within our Constitution and Laws, what is happening is that there are some who are being asked to explain what they knew and to justify their management/mismanagement (Holder primarily refusing) and are attempting to shield themselves behind their political party that are making it political.

    Or in making that assumption, are you implying/condoning that all of these agencies should operate autonomously and completely without any supervision or oversight?
    Last edited by LkWd_Don; June 24th, 2012 at 12:00 PM. Reason: added word to clarify
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  7. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    It matters not if it is a case of ineptitude, deception or outright criminal activity, DHS, DOJ, FBI, NSA, CIA, BATF, IRS, ICE and many other agencies within our Government were formed by Congress, receive their funding by our Congress and rightfully it falls to Congress to provide Oversight on these agencies.

    No Political Agenda needs to exist to insure that these departments/agencies operate within our Constitution and Laws, what is happening is that there are some who are being asked to explain what they knew and to justify their management/mismanagement (Holder primarily) and are attempting to shield themselves behind their political party that are making it political.

    Or in making that assumption, are you implying/condoning that all of these agencies should operate autonomously and completely without any supervision or oversight?
    Re, part in bold. Not at all. I'm asserting that the same Congress set up mechanisms for investigating
    these sorts of things and now is choosing to ignore the role and thwart the role of the IGs. Moreover,
    that they already have everything needed to conduct an investigation into F&F but have chosen to expand their
    demands into forbidden areas --executive deliberations-- which are protected by EP.

    Moving on, I saw this comment elsewhere and don't know if it is true or not. If true, then ....

    "and the gun that killed the border agent was in play before Obama became President"

    Does anyone know if that comment is actually true or not, and either way, how do you know?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  8. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Re, part in bold. Not at all. I'm asserting that the same Congress set up mechanisms for investigating
    these sorts of things and now is choosing to ignore the role and thwart the role of the IGs. Moreover,
    that they already have everything needed to conduct an investigation into F&F but have chosen to expand their
    demands into forbidden areas --executive deliberations-- which are protected by EP.

    Moving on, I saw this comment elsewhere and don't know if it is true or not. If true, then ....

    "and the gun that killed the border agent was in play before Obama became President"

    Does anyone know if that comment is actually true or not, and either way, how do you know?
    I will ask this again, where anywhere in our Constitution is the President permitted or given authority of Executive Privilege?
    I have shown before that in a couple of laws (that Congress created) the President is permitted to determine a Security Classification of records (USC Title 50 War and National Defense is one such law), but there is nowhere that a President can issue any proclamation that will in effect cover-up any wrong doing. That has been upheld by our SCOTUS on at least a couple of occasions.

    So, again, show us where the President has powers not granted to him under our Constitution and who granted those powers to that office!
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  9. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Moving on, I saw this comment elsewhere and don't know if it is true or not. If true, then ....

    "and the gun that killed the border agent was in play before Obama became President"

    Does anyone know if that comment is actually true or not, and either way, how do you know?
    If that comment is true, it contradicts everything presently in evidence and would completely change the focus of any action presently being taken.

    It had been my understanding that the weapons found to have been used to kill Terry had been slated for destruction and ended up in Drug Cartel hands. So far I am not finding anything to support that. What the evidence is actually showing is that it was allowed to be straw-purchased and then lost track of.

    I am trying to stay away from speculation and am sticking to what is presently in evidence or what is known fact. Which is why I even look for credible source citations for any claims of facts.
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  10. #204
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    This morning i watched the committees contempt hearing and the interview with Issa. IMO: Issa was very straight forward: A trait perhaps learned from his Army instructors at EOD school. Most of the Democrats on that committee are dedicated gun haters, especially that Quigley creep from Chicago. Quigley ranted about the availability of guns in AZ. Yep, a congressman who represents the most violent big city in the US ranting about guns in AZ. Minority leader Pelosi claimed Holder has turned over "tens of thousands" of documents to Issas committee.

    Issa: No evidence so far of White House cover-up - Yahoo! News


    WASHINGTON (AP) — Congress doesn't have any evidence so far of a White House cover-up involving a botched gun-tracking operation, a top Republican said Sunday, countering the House speaker's assertion that President Barack Obama or his aides deliberately misled lawmakers.

    "No we don't," said Rep. Darrell Issa, R.-Calif., in response to a question on "Fox News Sunday" about whether lawmakers had proof now to back Speaker John Boehner's claim about White House officials' involvement.

    "And I hope they don't get involved. I hope this stays at Justice," said Issa, chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee.
    Everyone who cares about our Second Amendment rights and truth in government needs to visit this site:

    http://www.cleanupatf.org/

    According to the congressional committees report: Two of the guns found at the scene of Brian Terrys murder were bought by gunrunner Jaime Avila of F&F fame. There is talk of a third F&F gun at that murder scene. By some accounts the FBI took that gun because it was attributed to one of their two "national security assets".

    All you ever wanted to know about the investigation into Fast and Furious:


    http://issues.oversight.house.gov/fastandfurious/
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  11. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by LkWd_Don View Post
    I will ask this again, where anywhere in our Constitution is the President permitted or given authority of Executive Privilege?
    I have shown before that in a couple of laws (that Congress created) the President is permitted to determine a Security Classification of records (USC Title 50 War and National Defense is one such law), but there is nowhere that a President can issue any proclamation that will in effect cover-up any wrong doing. That has been upheld by our SCOTUS on at least a couple of occasions.

    So, again, show us where the President has powers not granted to him under our Constitution and who granted those powers to that office!
    That question just ignores our history and our jurisprudence. We had that discussion a few pages back and off
    the board.

    C_Span replayed the House Committee meeting on Wed. prior to the committee vote. The
    committee had among other things asked for all manner of things prohibited to it by various
    statutes passed by Congress. The subpoena was so broad it included prohibited items such as
    Grand Jury testimony; Wiretaps; and more. WHile they backed off a bit between Friday and last Wed., they didn't back off enough. Very reasonable compromises and proposals were presented by the Congressman from Vermont; and dismissed.

    Moreover, frankly, if this didn't involve guns and the arrest of some dealers, I doubt any of the participants here would care a fig about what went on.

    If we interpreted constitution the way some of you folks are doing, The President would be a
    political eunuch. We'd have one branch, or as present, maybe half a branch running the show.

    There is no way executive deliberations can be shared with Congress without damaging the
    Separation of Powers for all future presidents.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  12. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    This morning i watched the committees contempt hearing
    I did too.

    The words "so far" used as he did imply that he expects to find something, evidence to date notwithstanding.
    Its called a witch hunt.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  13. #207
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    Nothing is stopping the IG from investigating Operation Fast and Furious except perhaps, his bosses. The IG has had nearly 18 months to investigate and compile his report. The fact there is no report speaks volumes.

    The third F&F gun found at the Terry murder scene was an SKS. From a tape recovered by CBS:


    In the following secret conversation made public between an ATF agent and a local gun store proprietor who was cooperating with the agency in its Fast and Furious operation, it is clear that something afoul occurred regarding the 3rd gun:


    Agent: Well there was two.

    Dealer: There's three weapons.


    Agent: There's three weapons.


    Dealer: I know that.


    Agent: And yes, there's serial numbers for all three.


    Dealer: That's correct.


    Agent: Two of them came from this store.


    Dealer: I understand that.


    Agent: There's an SKS that I don't think came from.... Dallas or Texas or something like that.


    Dealer: I know. talking about the AK's


    Agent: The two AK's came from this store.


    Dealer: I know that.


    Agent: Ok.


    Dealer: I did the Goddamned trace


    Agent: Third weapon is the SKS has nothing to do with it.


    Dealer: That didn't come from me.


    Agent: No and there is that's my knowledge. and I spoke to someone who would know those are the only ones they have. So this is the agent who's working the case, all I can go by is what she told me.

  14. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    ...
    Moreover, frankly, if this didn't involve guns and the arrest of some dealers, I doubt any of the participants here would care a fig about what went on.
    ...
    I don't think so. While we do tend to be more passionate about our gun rights, speaking for myself and probably others here, honesty and accountability in our elected and appointed officials is very important to me.

    Yes, the operation was a terrible mistake, but on the ATF level I might be willing to dismiss it as misguided. It is the cover-up that is offensive and indicative of larger, more dubious intent behind the operation.

    Just like with Clinton, what he does in his personal relationships is his own business, but the cover-up and lying to congress is unacceptable. Holder's cover-up/obstruction of the investigation is unacceptable. The discipline that was handed out, or lack thereof, is astounding. Shuffling a few people around, promoting some, and not explaining at all who is ultimately responsible for the greenlight on this mission is no way to discourage further operations of this nature that might similarly break laws, policies and international sovereignty/treaties.
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  15. #209
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    Holder's cover-up/obstruction of the investigation is unacceptable. The discipline that was handed out, or lack thereof, is astounding.
    If we had an Administration that was concerned about Justice, there would be none of this.

    If the real truth was known or found out,there might be a public outcry for all of them involved to be hanged. Deep down in their feeble little brains, they know this. That is why they scamper around like rats in the light, looking for a place to hide.
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  16. #210
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    There is no way executive deliberations can be shared with Congress without damaging the
    Separation of Powers for all future presidents.
    Executive Deliberations that hide criminal action by Government Officials need to be made public.

    Separation of Powers? What ever happened to telling the truth? One would think that a President be enough of a leader that he demanded the truth be known so that proper legal action could be taken, instead we have one that hides behind some so called Executive Privilege, to fore stall the inevitable until after the election.

    EP was meant to reduce damage to the U.S. in times of war... it wasn't meant to hide behind if you are doing things illegal. Clearly, that is exactly what is being done here and it doesn't take much of brain to see it.

    Trying to justify wrong by hiding behind some made up curtain of Privilege is no different than shooting people in the back of the head because you were "only following orders".

    Wrong is wrong. You correct it by making it right. Not by hiding it or ignoring it.

    That mentality is why the United States of America ceases to be great.
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