Would you support multi-level CCW permits

This is a discussion on Would you support multi-level CCW permits within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Bark'n I think it's stupid to have a carry permit in the fist place. I certainly don't support a multi-level permit. Just ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I think it's stupid to have a carry permit in the fist place. I certainly don't support a multi-level permit. Just adds another level of corruption to an already corrupt bureaucracy.
    I'm not saying your wrong, but it's what we have and were making it work. And in a lot of states, we have made significant headway in opening up more areas and straightening the laws to protect ourselves when we have to defend ourselves.

    We have made those advances because of the hard work and showing the anti's that they were wrong. The blood has not flowed in the streets. Maybe we'll one day get to the point of not having to have a permit in the majority of the states. We surly would never go from nothing to all to all at once with out this hard work and small steps paving the way.

    Still, some areas are restricted and beyond hope of any change any time soon.

    A lot of states that are now "Shall Issue" Virginia included, were "May Issue" before. It's no doubt that if the "May Issued" permit holders were an unruly bunch and tainted the waters, "Shall Issue" would not be where it is now.

    As a chance to get into some of these areas and prove ourselves. I don't see schools changing anytime soon. But I also don't like the idea of my child being completely unprotected either. I'd sign up and test for a "higher level" permit. If for no other reason, to stick it in their face when we prove them wrong, yet again.
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    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    ...
    I'm more in favor of simply removing most if not all of the restrictions on license holders (in states which have a system similar to TX's ). I really don't understand the school, church, and hospital, prohibitions, or why they make any sense whatsoever in the first place.

    It is extremely rare to hear of a crime of gun crime of violence committed by a license holder. Almost all gun related crimes
    seem to me to be by folks who are in illegal possession anyway, and who would pay no attention to the prohibitions at various
    zones
    .
    Whoah Hop, slow down there! You are trying to use reason and logic to evaluate the sittuation. Don't you know that isn't allowed in cun control discussions? :)
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    Let's also issue different tier permits for speech, based on SAT scores. 600 or above on the verbal and you can talk outside of your home.

    YGBSM.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    I've had my share of training, both in the Military and as an active duty LEO. I qualify for both my Delaware CCDW permit and yearly for my HR218 permit. Even with the training and the Nationwide permit, I'm still restricted as to where I can carry depending on whatever State I happen to be in.
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son View Post
    I'm not saying your wrong, but it's what we have and were making it work. And in a lot of states, we have made significant headway in opening up more areas and straightening the laws to protect ourselves when we have to defend ourselves.

    We have made those advances because of the hard work and showing the anti's that they were wrong. The blood has not flowed in the streets. Maybe we'll one day get to the point of not having to have a permit in the majority of the states. We surly would never go from nothing to all to all at once with out this hard work and small steps paving the way.

    Still, some areas are restricted and beyond hope of any change any time soon.

    A lot of states that are now "Shall Issue" Virginia included, were "May Issue" before. It's no doubt that if the "May Issued" permit holders were an unruly bunch and tainted the waters, "Shall Issue" would not be where it is now.

    As a chance to get into some of these areas and prove ourselves. I don't see schools changing anytime soon. But I also don't like the idea of my child being completely unprotected either. I'd sign up and test for a "higher level" permit. If for no other reason, to stick it in their face when we prove them wrong, yet again.
    I think any of us on this site would sign up for a "higher tiered permit" if it was required. However, the law abiding citizens in this country don't need to "prove ourselves" to our government. The government is already overstepping it's boundaries in regards to personal protection. Why? Because people, who think they are doing good be enacting more restrictive laws and legislation. To some, it sounds like a good thing... Offering more freedoms for those who "qualify" for the ability to defend themselves. Well, I have a problem with that. Law abiding citizens shouldn't have to qualify. Citizens already have the right. There is nothing to prove to the anti's, as you put it. The anti's are anti's. They will always be anti's. Citizens shouldn't base their rights on peoples baseless opinions. The only way to increase freedom and liberty is to decrease senseless laws. Not by making loopholes.

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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    and color code cars for the drives abilities and how fast they can go....

    where does it end.

    ------------------
    other direction is --you are personally responsibility for your actions.
    do something wrong, use bad judgment, get punished.

    otherwise, kindly let me decide what i can do and where.
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus222 View Post
    I think any of us on this site would sign up for a "higher tiered permit" if it was required. However, the law abiding citizens in this country don't need to "prove ourselves" to our government. The government is already overstepping it's boundaries in regards to personal protection. Why? Because people, who think they are doing good be enacting more restrictive laws and legislation. To some, it sounds like a good thing... Offering more freedoms for those who "qualify" for the ability to defend themselves. Well, I have a problem with that. Law abiding citizens shouldn't have to qualify. Citizens already have the right. There is nothing to prove to the anti's, as you put it. The anti's are anti's. They will always be anti's. Citizens shouldn't base their rights on peoples baseless opinions. The only way to increase freedom and liberty is to decrease senseless laws. Not by making loopholes.
    I understand what everyone is talking about, it should not be required, I Agree with all of you. sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and play their game. Then beat them at it.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
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  9. #23
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Would you support multi-level CCW permits
    Sometimes I do answer a question with a question just to make sure the original question is valid.

    Would you approve another yearly salary raise for our senators and congressmen?
    What exactly would "multi-level" mean? Kinda like rich, poor, middle class? I tend to think all of us have been separated enough through government, economics, religion, ideals, morals, etc....... Anyone who likes the idea of, or demands more separation from the team has high hopes for themselves in my opinion. Formal training? Paid training should advance someone in the eyes of the law above others who can only simply afford a pistol to protect their home and family? Specific rights now? Special privileges? An actual tier or tree of acceptable for concealed carry or carry at all? Look at how many law enforcement...or.....highly specialized and 'qualified' "citizens" have gone to the dark side after our tax payer dollars got them educated and trained enough to become bad people while protecting the innocent. This goes straight to the top and those charged with the president's utmost protection here of late. Tell me you're not thinking that there needs to be criteria on certain levels for all civilians provided a permit to carry even though the right has been turned into a privilege by those who supposedly maintain the status quo. To carry a weapon for self protection? Much less.......by your reasoning, our nation would crumble without the forces of the FBI, CIA, NSA, and each and every other entity that holds themselves to no higher authority while doing wrong or looking the other way.

    That got me to thinking, which admittedly gets me into trouble more often than not.
    Hey.......I promise not to say anything about this ordeal if you promise to forget the DNA testing okay? We got a deal? You keep going to your $750 two day thing at Gunsite Academy twice a year, and I promise practice and be more proficient month to month in the deployment of my sidearm as a dumb redneck that's paid my dues to this great country in order for you to think what you want any time you wish. While you're worrying about how everyone else has a right to carry a weapon, I'm shooting up an easy hundred dollars a month in ammo at the range practicing to rid the world of those who would do the rest of us harm. I think I'm responsible enough on my own for my own protection. I also think that you should feel better knowing I'd more than likely cover your ASSets in a Burger King under siege. That's just the kind of guy I am. One thing is for sure........you won't want to see my psychological profile. I've been highly trained by the government and your tax-payer dollars. I've also been trained to deny everything at any time no matter what. You either get your story straight or you drop it before I get an attorney to charge you with slander.......comprende?

    I Agree with all of you. sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and play their game.
    Who's "game". Who are "they"? Games are for kids. You grit your teeth? Definitely a sign of bad things. I won't tell. Your weaknesses are yours and yours alone........until you feel the need to tell the world. At this point, all bets are off.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    I know what you're saying, as well. I still couldn't disagree more. Gritting your teeth and bearing with bureaucratic ignorance is not the solution to the issue that you are describing. In fact, I couldn't see how that would be beneficial in any situation. Appeasement doesn't work.

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    A simple NO!

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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus222 View Post
    I know what you're saying, as well. I still couldn't disagree more. Gritting your teeth and bearing with bureaucratic ignorance is not the solution to the issue that you are describing. In fact, I couldn't see how that would be beneficial in any situation. Appeasement doesn't work.
    Are you of the mind that a permit shouldn't be required in the first place, though? If that's the case, isn't paying the government money to have the license we already have a sort of appeasement in itself? That might not be your stance, I'm just asking because I'm trying to figure out where I stand myself.

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son View Post
    Might even be a way for a few that really want to prove we are law abiding citizens to do just that.

    Your thoughts?
    Sorry, thought I was done, but this has got me over the top pissed off. Not at you personally (I don't even know who the hell you are, or vice versa), but whatever put that thought into your mind.

    There should be absolutely no way anyone should ever want for me "really want to prove" that I am a law-abiding citizen. You want proof, show me otherwise. Find probable cause to look in the first place. Charge me with a crime. Try me before a jury of my peers, and prove my guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's due process. It's in the Constitution. If more parents, teachers, coaches, and scout leaders would discuss that more instead of worrying about if Johhny and Janie know how to reach their inner aura and feel good about it while they do... aw hell, rant off.

    I lied. Rant on. You want proof? Look at my civ and mil record, including the days downrange and the number of funerals I've been at. Take me at my word the multiple times I raised my hand and took the oath to protect and serve or support and defend. But it shouldn't get to that point. If I want to OC an M-4 in downtown NYC (and I don't - again, I'm law abiding, y'know), I ought to be able to do it, and nobody should look at me like I'm going to knock off the SoHo Starbucks, or be offended at the sight of Parkerized steel. You should assume I'm a lawful citizen unless I act in a way that gives you PC to think otherwise. Instead, be offended by and suspicious of that 300-lb guy wearing spandex hotpants - now there's a crime if I've ever seen one. Rant off, for now.
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  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    Sometimes I do answer a question with a question just to make sure the original question is valid.

    Would you approve another yearly salary raise for our senators and congressmen?
    What exactly would "multi-level" mean? Kinda like rich, poor, middle class? I tend to think all of us have been separated enough through government, economics, religion, ideals, morals, etc....... Anyone who likes the idea of, or demands more separation from the team has high hopes for themselves in my opinion. Formal training? Paid training should advance someone in the eyes of the law above others who can only simply afford a pistol to protect their home and family? Specific rights now? Special privileges? An actual tier or tree of acceptable for concealed carry or carry at all? Look at how many law enforcement...or.....highly specialized and 'qualified' "citizens" have gone to the dark side after our tax payer dollars got them educated and trained enough to become bad people while protecting the innocent. This goes straight to the top and those charged with the president's utmost protection here of late. Tell me you're not thinking that there needs to be criteria on certain levels for all civilians provided a permit to carry even though the right has been turned into a privilege by those who supposedly maintain the status quo. To carry a weapon for self protection? Much less.......by your reasoning, our nation would crumble without the forces of the FBI, CIA, NSA, and each and every other entity that holds themselves to no higher authority while doing wrong or looking the other way.



    Hey.......I promise not to say anything about this ordeal if you promise to forget the DNA testing okay? We got a deal? You keep going to your $750 two day thing at Gunsite Academy twice a year, and I promise practice and be more proficient month to month in the deployment of my sidearm as a dumb redneck that's paid my dues to this great country in order for you to think what you want any time you wish. While you're worrying about how everyone else has a right to carry a weapon, I'm shooting up an easy hundred dollars a month in ammo at the range practicing to rid the world of those who would do the rest of us harm. I think I'm responsible enough on my own for my own protection. I also think that you should feel better knowing I'd more than likely cover your ASSets in a Burger King under siege. That's just the kind of guy I am. One thing is for sure........you won't want to see my psychological profile. I've been highly trained by the government and your tax-payer dollars. I've also been trained to deny everything at any time no matter what. You either get your story straight or you drop it before I get an attorney to charge you with slander.......comprende?
    Fare questions to ask.
    First, I am a high school educated redneck myself. living on 22 acres out in the country. I can make my bills and that's about all. Never been to Gunsight. I have been to a school in WV, but had to break it up into individual days so I didn't have to pay for a hotel and could drive back and forth each time. I also roll my own and shoot regularly on my property along with regular dry fire sessions. Do I see myself above anyone else, HE.L NO. I enjoy being a Joe Nobody scratching a living out of what I can here in the good old US of A. I do appreciate all that you as well as all of our fine Military folks (My dad and uncles included) have done for this country to ensure we are free. I'll cover my own Assets, thanks for the consideration. Not everyone that stands up for themselves and others was trained by the Military. Some us were raised by those that were and others are just plain committed to helping. I have gotten out of bed in the middle of the night to get my neighbor off the side of the highway. I've helped that old couple change a tire, and cut and split wood for my neighbors mom because that's how I roll

    To the point of the thread. This is just a question for discussion to see what people think. Seems to be overwhelmingly against. wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. That's fine, I do believe its the whole point of being on this forum.
    The permits as they are now would be the normal permit. I would never consider taking away what we have all gained away from anyone. It would still be valid for everyone to carry in all the normal places. On the street, in the convince store, in Burger King Etc.

    But the places off limits. Which are very few here in Va. I'm using schools as an example, we can push and fight for another 10 years to get schools taken of the prohibited list. Meanwhile, our kids are unprotected. If we could push through a higher level permit, one closer to say a police academy training but focused on citizens and CCW to gain quicker access to the more restricted areas so our children would be protected now, not later if ever.

    Isn't this what they do to us. introduce something, then get it expanded, isn't' that what we have done to get where we are, get the narrow edge of the wedge in, then drive it in further. Some states started out with permits, then went to not needing a permit?
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH_Esau View Post
    Sorry, thought I was done, but this has got me over the top pissed off. Not at you personally (I don't even know who the hell you are, or vice versa), but whatever put that thought into your mind.

    There should be absolutely no way anyone should ever want for me "really want to prove" that I am a law-abiding citizen. You want proof, show me otherwise. Find probable cause to look in the first place. Charge me with a crime. Try me before a jury of my peers, and prove my guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's due process. It's in the Constitution. If more parents, teachers, coaches, and scout leaders would discuss that more instead of worrying about if Johhny and Janie know how to reach their inner aura and feel good about it while they do... aw hell, rant off.

    I lied. Rant on. You want proof? Look at my civ and mil record, including the days downrange and the number of funerals I've been at. Take me at my word the multiple times I raised my hand and took the oath to protect and serve or support and defend. But it shouldn't get to that point. If I want to OC an M-4 in downtown NYC (and I don't - again, I'm law abiding, y'know), I ought to be able to do it, and nobody should look at me like I'm going to knock off the SoHo Starbucks, or be offended at the sight of Parkerized steel. You should assume I'm a lawful citizen unless I act in a way that gives you PC to think otherwise. Instead, be offended by and suspicious of that 300-lb guy wearing spandex hotpants - now there's a crime if I've ever seen one. Rant off, for now.
    I'm not questioning you or your background. I am all for no permits. The simple fact ramains, enough of the ones in charge do question all of us. That pisses me off too. The question is how do we get from what we have, to not having a need for Permits?
    I would say in this scenario, that all active and former active military would qualify for a higher level permit than I would without significant extra qualifications. I would not have a problem with that. No further testing or permit needed for Military folks. in fact, in VA, it does automaticaly qualify you for a CCW permit. My father got his with no class needed. Do I have a problem with that. Nope, Sure don't, he has proven his capabilities with firearms. Same as you and any other former military member.

    I'm not trying to get anyone worked up here, just asking a question about another way to further our cause.
    Last edited by 4my sons; May 23rd, 2012 at 03:06 PM. Reason: to clarify
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
    If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son View Post
    I'm not questioning you or your background. I am all for no permits. The simple fact ramains, enough of the ones in charge do question all of us. That pisses me off too. The question is how do we get from what we have, to not having a need for Permits?
    I would say in this scenario, that all active and former active military would qualify for a higher level permit than I would without significant qualifications. I would not have a problem with that. No further testing or permit needed. in fact, in VA, it does automaticaly qualify you for the standard permit. My father got his with no class needed. Do I have a problem with that. Nope, Sure don't, he has proven his capabilities with firearms. Same as you and any other former military member.

    I'm not trying to get anyone worked up here, just asking a question about another way to further our cause.
    Being ex-military in no way ensures one is proficient at marksmanship. Some of the lousiest shots I have ever known were in the reserve transportation unit I joined for a year after I ets'ed from an infantry unit.
    We get from here to there by electing officials who represent our interests instead of ones who question our right to bear arms.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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