Would you support multi-level CCW permits

This is a discussion on Would you support multi-level CCW permits within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by 4my son While watching a video on crime in Detroit and the arguments of both pro and anti an interesting comment was ...

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Thread: Would you support multi-level CCW permits

  1. #46
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son View Post
    While watching a video on crime in Detroit and the arguments of both pro and anti an interesting comment was made by the pro gun guy. He mentioned That got me to thinking, which admittedly gets me into trouble more often than not.

    The thread More On Detroit
    no multi tier permitting levels would be very difficult to deal with, how about no permits? just having a clean background should be enough to own a gun

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  3. #47
    Ex Member Array pir8fan's Avatar
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    Since I don't believe we should be required to have a permit to carry concealed in the first place, I certainly wouldn't support a multi-level permit. That's saying the 2nd Amendment applies more freely to some than to others. It applies equally to all.

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Simple answer .... NOPE ! ! ! I would not be in support of multi-level permits.


    I'm not totally convinced there should be any permits, per se, I think the 2nd Amendment covered it.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by tubadude View Post
    I'd be open to extra training and evaluations if it would get me an exemption to carry at school as a teacher.
    EXACTLY! I've been saying this for years. Ask for volunteers, send us to crisis intervention and prevention boot camp, state police summer school, and let us be the first responders by carrying at school. I can get to the office a heck of a lot quicker than that cop on patrol on the other side of town.
    Oh, wait, that would defy common sense...

    Jim
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  6. #50
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    As if permits and carry laws aren't complicated enough...
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  7. #51
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    The problem, as I see it, is one of practicality. We can claim that the constitution is the only permit needed, or argue for no permits, complain about the existing laws, all we want, but the fact remains that the "system" has declared that certain places are off limits to Joe Citizen with his carry permit and these types of arguments will never change it. In fact this thread reminds me of one from a few months back discussing why you should be prohibited from carry in places like NYC. In that thread, I accused a member of being a closet anti because they supported this prohibition, if I recall correctly on the basis that it was (or certain areas were) too crowded and hence posed extra dangers. Now, I do not accept this logic as justification for gun prohibitions, largely because I don't agree with the Nanny State concept that says I need to be restricted because the average idiot can't be trusted.

    However, the argument and this thread have caused me to look at things from a different perspective and that is to question whether or not there are practical reason for declaring these places 'off limits' and whether there is a practical means to address the problem. The current system and it's prohibitions are all based on the Nanny State concept of protecting proverbial category X from the lowest common denominator (LCD) in terms of armed citizen and perhaps "they" are right in that LCD-Joe is not capable or responsible enough to be armed in these situations. If this is the case, then I would argue that one potential answer is to not be that lowest common denominator, but instead to demonstrate and prove that you are capable and responsible enough to permitted in these areas.
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  8. #52
    Senior Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    I think you might be surprised at "LCD Joe" who knows more about guns and gun safety than the most educated biased anti who is sitting on capitol hill making unfounded claims and ridiculous anti-gun laws. Liberals don't want you to have guns at all (for the most part, yes there are exceptions). Every inch of freedom that is given - they will take a mile.

    If you can provide me with some statistics that show how "LCD Joe" is a danger to society by having a carry permit, I would like to see it. I believe what you will find, though, is a lot of statistics that show concealed (and open) carriers to be some of the safest, most law abiding citizens in the country. I can't help but wonder how many of those included would be classified as "LCD Joe" in your book.

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    If this is the case, then I would argue that one potential answer is to not be that lowest common denominator, but instead to demonstrate and prove that you are capable and responsible enough to permitted in these areas.
    I, 300k other Ohioans and the millions of other armed citizens nationwide prove that we responsibly carry each and every day as we quietly go about leading our lives without incident.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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  10. #54
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    However, the argument and this thread have caused me to look at things from a different perspective and that is to question whether or not there are practical reason for declaring these places 'off limits' and whether there is a practical means to address the problem. The current system and it's prohibitions are all based on the Nanny State concept of protecting proverbial category X from the lowest common denominator (LCD) in terms of armed citizen and perhaps "they" are right in that LCD-Joe is not capable or responsible enough to be armed in these situations. If this is the case, then I would argue that one potential answer is to not be that lowest common denominator, but instead to demonstrate and prove that you are capable and responsible enough to permitted in these areas.
    I completely agree. We should extend this logic to a license to have children. LCD Joe and Joanne surely shouldn't be allowed to do so.
    ...or to speak in public (you never know when they might erupt into violent hate speech)
    ...or to cook cupcakes for the class (oh, that's already happening)
    ...or teach their kids at home (that's happening too)

  11. #55
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    I have been telling many untis that CCW holders are the most responsible and most sensible people I have ever met... That are also the ones that obey the law more strictly than the average Joe or "LCD Joe" as it is depicted here... As a CCW holder you avoid been in any type of trouble, hardly ever drinks, spends more time at the range than anybody else, talks about scenarios with other CCW holders to learn more then goes out and practice what has been learned...

    I don't know but to me I seems like we, as CCW holders, are always learning, training, analyzing situations, and keeping out of trouble... We are nothing close to being average
    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

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  12. #56
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EeyoreCC View Post
    Mississippi recently switched to a 2-tiered system. There is no training or competency requirement to get a permit there. With the specified training (though the exact training and who can do it are somewhat vague and arbitrary) you can get an "enhanced" permit which allows you to carry in several places that are off-limits to unenhanced permit holders, such as church, polling places, etc. If you accept the premise that concealed carry is a privilege not a right, I don't think this is unreasonable (unlike some of Mississippi's other gun laws). CC-specific training is prudent to ensure you are aware of and don't run afoul of local laws, but the basic permit is minimally invasive, so you have a choice. A decent balance, IMHO. Now if we could just get them to define "concealed" in a reasonable way....
    What would bothers me is the training on the LEO's ability to see which tier your in and not haul you off because they got it wrong or have their own agenda. Plesae dont read anything into that last statement as Im not anti LEO. I've noted and it appears the more complicated the process is on anything at any level and it creates room for several interpertations on how it reads and what it means. Ever read your homeowners insurance policy?
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  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    I am not going to try to quote all the responses about statistic regarding crime rates, degree of being law abiding, etc. I will, however, reiterate my earlier point that all the statistics and what not, with rare and slow exception, are failing to bring about the desired change. This leads to the question of whether or not these methods adequately address the problem, in terms of being a viable solution.

    One of the problems with statistics like this is the same on as in the old joke: "what do you call the guy who graduates last in his med school class? Answer: doctor". It would appear that the existing statistics aren't enough or aren't the answer.

    This thread has challenged us to come up with ideas and alternatives. A multi-tiered license being one consideration. Any other, realistic, ideas?

    P.S. - I would fully support needing a license to reproduce and have said so for many years.

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  14. #58
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    I'm not a fan of statistics, either. Did you know that 60% of statistical information is falsified or misrepresented 100% of the time?

    Although, I'm not sure how many people can take you seriously after the reproduction license comment, but... You really don't think that adding more complex laws to a system of laws that are already overreaching is going to do anything but take away liberty and rights?

    If the laws are already wrong, why should citizens accept more restrictions on a system that is already universally flawed and proven to be completely ineffective for it's intended purpose? ...Unless the intended purpose is already intentionally unjust and potentially/possibly unconstitutional - IE to remove or over complicate the ability of citizens to bear arms.

  15. #59
    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotus222 View Post
    If the laws are already wrong, why should citizens accept more restrictions on a system that is already universally flawed and proven to be completely ineffective for it's intended purpose?
    Thank you for raising this point as I really do think it gets to the heart of the matter. That being the SCOTUS rulings that have established the precedents that allow, show examples of, but don't define sensitive places that are subject to prohibition. Unfortunately, I also think that this is why the constitutionality track is a dead end in this regard as well as being the an element of the root problem.

    The question becomes, what is sensitive about these places, why is a prohibition justifiable for them, and hence what criteria would be sufficient to establish an exemption?




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  16. #60
    Member Array baren's Avatar
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    I wouldn't support a multi-level permit. I think it could easily be used against us. Who would the psychological evaluation examiners work for? The government? This could be easily abused by anti-2A Agrenda-bias. We have actitist judges on the brenches. LEO Chiefs that won't sign off on paperwork for ATF permits, etc. I agreed with the Others. Less Tape and reduce the option to restrict a permit. IMHO

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