Despite ‘Castle Doctrine,’ defendant is convicted in slaying - PA - Philly

This is a discussion on Despite ‘Castle Doctrine,’ defendant is convicted in slaying - PA - Philly within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; By Mensah M. Dean Daily News Staff Writer Philadelphia Daily News Posted: Wed, May. 30, 2012, 8:51 PM ...............The case underscores how uncertain the claim ...

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Thread: Despite ‘Castle Doctrine,’ defendant is convicted in slaying - PA - Philly

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array ANGLICO's Avatar
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    Despite ‘Castle Doctrine,’ defendant is convicted in slaying - PA - Philly

    By Mensah M. Dean
    Daily News Staff Writer

    Philadelphia Daily News

    Posted: Wed, May. 30, 2012, 8:51 PM


    ...............The case underscores how uncertain the claim of self-defense can be, even in a state that revised its "Castle Doctrine" last year to give an individual the right to use deadly force in self-defense anywhere in which a person has a legal right to be. The revised law also eliminated the duty to retreat before using that force. Lowe’s case was featured in March in a Daily News article about the revision of that doctrine. (note: this is a paragraph down in the article that I pulled up front = out of order).

    Current Ruling: ........A PHILADELPHIA JUDGE said Wednesday he was convinced that a disabled, retired Marine was being attacked in the moments before he fatally stabbed a man last October, but he concluded that the stabbing was still a criminal act rather than self-defense.

    Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner then convicted Jonathan Lowe, 57, of voluntary manslaughter and possession of an instrument of crime. The judge found him not guilty of the more-serious charges of first- and third-degree murder.

    ....(snip)....


    "When he had his hands around my neck, I pulled out my knife and started stabbing him," Lowe testified Wednesday.

    Stretton noted that Lowe stayed at the scene and cooperated with police, believing himself to be the victim.

    Stretton said case law barred him from introducing Manning’s 18 criminal convictions at trial because Lowe wasn’t aware of them and most of them were too old, the most recent from 2002. According to court records, Manning was awaiting trial for allegedly knocking out a woman’s teeth while robbing her two years ago Thursday.


    My Comments: It's Philly, and we know who runs the machine there. Might as well be D.C. or Chicago. Also... Sounds like the guy needed a much better Attorney! A non-Jury Trial....?..........bad decision on this one in my opinion (which is not wort spit).


    Read more (and turn on your Pop Up Blocker First) at: Despite ‘Castle Doctrine,’ defendant is convicted in slaying
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    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    The rest of the story is slightly different. The DA says there was evidence of him chasing the robber down stabbing him in the back and trying to stab him again while he was down. If he was down and no threat or fleeing the ruling may be accurate. I don't know the facts of the case. Only what was written.

    Still seems like justice in this case was not served.
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    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    He was most llikely found guilty becuase he stabbed the BG in the back twice, taunted him, and tried to stab him some more.

    Naylor seized on inconsistencies between the testimonies of Lowe and the students, including where the stabbing took place. She argued that before the students came upon the struggle, Lowe stabbed Manning from behind before both men ended up on the ground.


    She noted that two stab wounds were in Manning’s back. She also said Lowe showed intent to kill with malice because after Manning fell mortally wounded, Lowe taunted him and even tried to stab him some more.
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    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    Good, Bad guy dead!

    Bad, good guy goes to jail!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    Good, Bad guy dead!

    Bad, good guy goes to jail!
    Not a good guy if some of the comments above about chasing the BG down and stabbing him in the back are accurate.
    That pretty much makes this the same sort of situation as that Pharmacist in Kansas who was convicted of murder.

    As for the comment that he had a bad lawyer, maybe, maybe not. If you think the law is on your side
    it is sometimes better to have a bench trial.

    Philly isn't as bad as many folks including myself in the past think it is. It is different, and interesting,
    and the Center City area seems to be improving. Also, nice interesting ethnic neighborhoods. Can't beat the
    food.
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    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Based on what I've read, that's not real Castle Doctriney-type material there. More like two thugs getting their jollies.
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    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    It's incidents like these that are helpful for the average Joe to consider regarding home defense. Just because you are attacked in your residence doesn't mean you have the right to do whatever you want to do to the intruder. You have the right to defend yourself and stop the attack, not go all-out on them if they try to get away. Once the attack is stopped, you have to let the police take it from there.
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    This judge is very liberal in all his rulings in the past so I am not too surprised. I can understand the vet was probably high on adrenalin after a fight but I can't fathom him "going after the BG" using his wheel chair... BG had several convictions prior but not admissible??? BS

    Hopefully, his appeal will work out for him...
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    Sounds like the guy needed a much better Attorney! A non-Jury Trial....?..........bad decision on this one in my opinion (which is not wort spit).

    I second this

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    Can't imagine having such a thing tried by judge, and not by jury.

    Seems to be conflicting information in the news reports, regarding the trial. From our vantage point, we don't have the full record of evidence and testimony, so it's hard to know. Still ...

    A guy with a pacemaker and heart condition gets chased, as confirmed by witnesses, beaten with a metal pipe/pole, pinned and choked. According to at least one witness, they were on the ground for as much as 2mins. According to Lowe's testimony, he was accosted by three assailants, assaulted by one violently, and he used his own knife to fend off the attacker.

    Unfortunately for him (Lowe), the knife wounds he ended up inflicting were all on the assailant's posterior (instead of anterior) surfaces, and he reportedly was heard by witnesses to have spoken the words: "Die, [expletive], die! This is what you did! You’re going to die!"

    Even if all the prior information were true, in the mind of many those words could make it hard to claim victim status. Had he instead been heard to exclaim things like "Stop attacking me ... call the police ... I don't want to hurt you / stay down," I'm betting that claims he was the violent attacker would have fallen on deaf ears.

    Whatever else, this case shows something very clearly, at least to me: it's not enough to merely be the victim; but it's just as important to be seen/heard to be the victim, so that the attacker is seen for what he/she is.
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    I work in Center City all day.
    yes. yes it is. exactly as bad as many folks including yourself in the past thought it was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Not a good guy if some of the comments above about chasing the BG down and stabbing him in the back are accurate.
    That pretty much makes this the same sort of situation as that Pharmacist in Kansas who was convicted of murder.

    As for the comment that he had a bad lawyer, maybe, maybe not. If you think the law is on your side
    it is sometimes better to have a bench trial.

    Philly isn't as bad as many folks including myself in the past think it is. It is different, and interesting,
    and the Center City area seems to be improving. Also, nice interesting ethnic neighborhoods. Can't beat the
    food.
    Re-read the story. Lowe was the one who was chased down, not the person killed.

    Two Temple University students said Manning was chasing Lowe and trying to hit him with a metal pole before he caught him. Manning then pinned Lowe to the ground, they said.
    The stab wounds in the back don't bother me at all, they are rolling on the ground fighting, he stabs when he can, if his arm goes behind the guy and stabs him in the back, no different than a person turning to run just as you pull the trigger and end up shooting him in the back.

    Mr. Lowe made 2 BIG mistakes. #1 was going with a bench trial versus a jury trial. #2 was living in Philly.
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