Gun Owner, Not Thief, Could be Held Liable for Murders in New Hampshire - Page 2

Gun Owner, Not Thief, Could be Held Liable for Murders in New Hampshire

This is a discussion on Gun Owner, Not Thief, Could be Held Liable for Murders in New Hampshire within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Ransom I see a few problems with your analysis: The gun was in a locked house and the thieving grandson had to ...

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Thread: Gun Owner, Not Thief, Could be Held Liable for Murders in New Hampshire

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
    I see a few problems with your analysis: The gun was in a locked house and the thieving grandson had to break in to steal it.
    That's not good enough for the pontificating, high and mighty moral majority.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Secured, hidden, or otherwise, the blame is entirely on the thief--NOT the victim(s). Unless NH has a law that states all firearms must be locked and secured when not on the person, the owner violated no laws.

    At what point do we, as citizens, make a stand and force the courts to stop making criminals of victims?




    ^^^^^^^^YEP^^^^^^^^^


    This will be shot down, either in this trial, or the next go around...


    Bleeting heart stupidity sometimes reigns supreme, but I don't think so in this instance.
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  3. #18
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    This is what the story actually said: "A federal judge decided Secord didn't have a duty to store his gun in a different manner, citing the circumstances of the case - that Woodbury had broken into Secord's cabin - and a New Hampshire Supreme Court ruling that individuals ordinarily can't be held liable for crimes committed by others."

    The rest of it, particularly what seems an incomplete statement about the status of the case in the opening paragrpah
    is all just attention getting for the writer. No need to get all uptight folks. Read what the Federal Judge's decision
    actually was and what the New Hamphshir Supreme Court has said in other matters--"can't be held liable for crimes
    committed by others."

    Now relax.

    (I've a hunch that the Federal Appeals court isn't even looking at this aspect of the litigation. But without the text of the appeal, who knows. Donkeys will fly before the law in this area is changed.)
    ksholder, DaveH and oneshot like this.
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Thank you Hop
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orion View Post
    Irrelevant. There is no indication in the story that this is an area where one could reasonable expect a child to be, or have access to for that matter. The story states that this is the owner's camp, subsequently referred to as a cabin. One could reason that this may be a hunting lodge, used by select members of the family and not for general family use and entertainment. One could then assume that anyone familiar with the site would also be educated in the proper handling and use of a firearm. Too many variables that are missing from the story to make any definitive conclusion.
    from the article:Those factors created an "unreasonable risk of criminal misconduct," the attorneys said, noting that Secord "knew his felon grandson was in the area and familiar with the cabin and handgun."
    this should not matter if he knew or not; fact is anyone could have broken in and stole the firearm. to leave a gun in a somewhat unsecure place like a cabin in the woods. these places are broke into all the time because there is no one around.

    Keep in mind we are not talking about the safe handling of a firearm but the ease of access in which a person (any person) has to it. To leave a firearm accessible to anyone that wants to use it is in itself irresponsible

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    this should not matter if he knew or not; fact is anyone could have broken in and stole the firearm. to leave a gun in a somewhat unsecure place like a cabin in the woods. these places are broke into all the time because there is no one around.

    Keep in mind we are not talking about the safe handling of a firearm but the ease of access in which a person (any person) has to it. To leave a firearm accessible to anyone that wants to use it is in itself irresponsible
    Well, I sure hope you have all your knives, hammers, baseball bats, lawn tools, sharp, pointy and heavy objects locked in your safe.

    To leave them accessible to anyone who wants to use them is in itself irresponsible.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I had a friend who's car was stolen and later used as a getaway car after robbing a store. If my friend had lived in New Hampshire at the time would he have been charged with armed robbery? The car thieves also broke traffic laws when trying to evade capture after the robbery. Should my friend have to pay traffic fines as well?

    Michael

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    this should not matter if he knew or not; fact is anyone could have broken in and stole the firearm. to leave a gun in a somewhat unsecure place like a cabin in the woods. these places are broke into all the time because there is no one around.

    Keep in mind we are not talking about the safe handling of a firearm but the ease of access in which a person (any person) has to it. To leave a firearm accessible to anyone that wants to use it is in itself irresponsible
    Don't take this wrong but are you smoking something has not been legalized yet? Dude, if someone walks up behind you and hits you upside the head, takes your weapon and goes and kills someone should you be held responsible? Don't try to say it is absurd and that you are always n control of your surroundings becasue that is not true of anyone. A person is a soft target and if taken by surprise can have their weapon taken from them. In fact, it is far easier to take from a person if I knew you were carrying and I surprised you than for a criminal to break into a house and find a hidden gun.

    BTW: I live in the Conway area and actually went shopping by the Army barracks this afternoon.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    from the article:Those factors created an "unreasonable risk of criminal misconduct," the attorneys said, noting that Secord "knew his felon grandson was in the area and familiar with the cabin and handgun."
    Hmph. By the attorneys' logic, it's a simple fact that by being a felon the state knew his predisposition and should have known such things were coming down the pike. By golly, why aren't THEY (the judge, parole board members, PO) being held responsible for their dereliction and foreknowledge, eh? Bueller ... Bueller? Yeah.

    But the lawyers got their hourly fees, that's the main thing.
    atctimmy likes this.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From the article
    Guns should be kept locked safely away when not under your direct control. Come to think of it so should lawyers.
    Locked homes, locks on weapons and even locked/safe storage doesn't stop thieving, anymore than locks on attorneys' nightly coffins would stop their daylight raids upon our sensibilities. The home's items were under lock, of course. The attorneys' coffins weren't, though.

    NH: Live Free Or Die. They once had it right. Let's hope they still do.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #26
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    So, barstoolguru, how many locks are the minimum required, of what type, and what specifications must a container meet to secure a firearm? Please cite your source.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I had a friend who's car was stolen and later used as a getaway car after robbing a store. If my friend had lived in New Hampshire at the time would he have been charged with armed robbery? The car thieves also broke traffic laws when trying to evade capture after the robbery. Should my friend have to pay traffic fines as well?

    Michael
    Just to keep the conversation interesting, maybe so. Did your friend leave the keys in the car that was stolen?
    Did he leave the windows down? Translation to our home burglary of guns issue, did you actually lock your
    home up when you left? Were your windows secure?

    Then, just for more conversation and arguing the side I don't agree with, if we would hold someone responsible
    because they failed to lock their outer door, is it that much of a leap to hold them responsible for not using
    a gun safe?

    Clearly, I'm on the no safe side of the issue and I do not think the courts will hold the man responsible, but
    reasoning from the stolen car, stolen because it was left open, might lead to a different conclusion regarding the guns.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Did your friend leave the keys in the car that was stolen? Did he leave the windows down? Translation to our home burglary of guns issue, did you actually lock your home up when you left? Were your windows secure?
    IMO, the most that can be said about such steps is that they contribute to the likelihood of theft, by creating conditions somewhat more attractive to thieves. But that hardly means a person has caused subsequent, unrelated use of the item. That second, subsequent, unrelated crime is the criminal's choice and full responsibility.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  14. #29
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Don't take this wrong but are you smoking something has not been legalized yet? Dude, if someone walks up behind you and hits you upside the head, takes your weapon and goes and kills someone should you be held responsible? Don't try to say it is absurd and that you are always n control of your surroundings becasue that is not true of anyone. A person is a soft target and if taken by surprise can have their weapon taken from them. In fact, it is far easier to take from a person if I knew you were carrying and I surprised you than for a criminal to break into a house and find a hidden gun.

    BTW: I live in the Conway area and actually went shopping by the Army barracks this afternoon.
    We are not talking strong arm robbery here; we are talking negligent that cost someone else their life. He chose to leave a firearm in a cabin that he has no direct control over. He left the gun in a place that could have been breached by anyone and it was by HIS own family. When you leave a gun some place that mutable people have access to with minimal effort you should be responsible for it.
    And I do agree that if you go to bed and leave your keys lying out and someone takes the car you are responsible for that too

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    We are not talking strong arm robbery here; we are talking negligent that cost someone else their life. He chose to leave a firearm in a cabin that he has no direct control over. He left the gun in a place that could have been breached by anyone and it was by HIS own family. When you leave a gun some place that mutable people have access to with minimal effort you should be responsible for it.
    And I do agree that if you go to bed and leave your keys lying out and someone takes the car you are responsible for that too
    WOW, just WOW

    So, if you work in the control room of a nuclear power plant and need your right index finger print to get into the facility and control room AND a perp hits you in the head with a baseball bat and knocks you out THEN he cuts off your right index finger and uses it to get into the control room. The perp then intentionally melts down the reactor and creates Chernobyl on steroids. Are you responsible for all that???
    atctimmy likes this.
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