Chicago gets spanked by a Federal Judge once again!

This is a discussion on Chicago gets spanked by a Federal Judge once again! within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Hoganbeg I must draw your attention to the fact that we do indeed have the right and power of deciding what is ...

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Thread: Chicago gets spanked by a Federal Judge once again!

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoganbeg View Post
    I must draw your attention to the fact that we do indeed have the right and power of deciding what is a good or bad law. Aside from elected representatives, we have the power of Jury Nullification which is too often ignored by jurors. Simply put, no matter what the law says, if the jury thinks otherwise they have the power to acquit, evidence not withstanding.

    Also, We should never follow laws blindly just because they are laws. They must always be morally justifiable. To do otherwise plays into the hands of those who would bend the law to their own purposes. I refer you to post #23.
    Don't count on that if you are ever charged with a crime. Your defense attorney is forbidden to even
    suggest that to the jury and it won't be in the jury instructions. The judge will tell the jurors what the law
    is and can hold them in contempt (though it rarely happens) if they knowingly and deliberately ignore his
    jury instructions.
    Last edited by Hopyard; June 20th, 2012 at 08:37 PM.
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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The judge's reason makes some basic sense to me; as he put the emphasis on the fact that the crime
    was a non-violent misdemeanor. OTOH, I'm still uncomfortable with anyone who knowingly and deliberately
    breaks a law with respect to weapons possession. I don't care if that's going to NYC armed or
    keeping a rifle in your house without a permit. Weapons laws --though often misguided-- are intended
    to help keep violence down
    , and those who would deliberately choose to break them are in my mind
    a little closer to the edge of violence than I would want them to be. Its not quite the same as getting a misdemeanor
    conviction for remodeling your basement without a building permit.
    I would dissagree. Politicians want us to think that weapons laws are intended to reduce violence. They have been proven not to do so. They just change the type of violence. Most firearms laws are intended to restrict or prevent use and ownership of firearms by law abiding citizens.

    Some politicians may be pure at heart, but most in power, just want more power. And when the people have less power, the government has more.
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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Don't count on that if you are ever charged with a crime. Your defense attorney is forbidden to even
    suggest that to the jury and it won't be in the jury instructions. The judge will tell the jurors what the law
    is and can hold them in contempt (though it rarely happens) if the knowingly and deliberately ignore his
    jury instructions.
    Agree ...also good luck using the " the law is immoral so I don't have to abide by it" defense. What a joke.
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  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Agree ...also good luck using the " the law is immoral so I don't have to abide by it" defense. What a joke.
    The thing about civil disobedience is that if you choose to disobey, then you also have to be willing to take your lumps when it comes down to that.

    I used the example of Hitler, merely to point out that just simply because any spepcific law is "legal" within a given society/culture, it does not immediately make that law moral. We may choose to disagree on this point--that is our right as Ameicans--remember our history--the "shot that was heard around the world" refers to the Battle of Lexington and Concord--when the British Army marched to seize rifles and ammunition the Americans resisted with force of arms--an act of civil disobedience and rebellion as seen by the British.

    So, lets make this a bit closer to home, IllinoisCCW, if the present day Illinois legislature & Govenor passed a law that ordered every citizen to turn in ALL their firearms within 10 days for immediate destruction, would you comply simply because it was now the legal law of your state?
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    The thing about civil disobedience is that if you choose to disobey, then you also have to be willing to take your lumps when it comes down to that.

    I used the example of Hitler, merely to point out that just simply because any spepcific law is "legal" within a given society/culture, it does not immediately make that law moral. We may choose to disagree on this point--that is our right as Ameicans--remember our history--the "shot that was heard around the world" refers to the Battle of Lexington and Concord--when the British Army marched to seize rifles and ammunition the Americans resisted with force of arms--an act of civil disobedience and rebellion as seen by the British.

    So, lets make this a bit closer to home, IllinoisCCW, if the present day Illinois legislature & Govenor passed a law that ordered every citizen to turn in ALL their firearms within 10 days for immediate destruction, would you comply simply because it was now the legal law of your state?
    Point taken. In your example I would send my firearms to out of state relatives. If that's not an option, yes I would comply...it's the law. I would not risk everything I own and imprisonment for a gun...sorry


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  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Point taken. In your example I would send my firearms to out of state relatives. If that's not an option, yes I would comply...it's the law. I would not risk everything I own and imprisonment for a gun...sorry
    IllinoisCCW: Thanks for the response--while you and I would disagree, both are "principled" positions (decisions based on "Principle" rather than a self-centered view). Again, that is one of the things that makes America great--nobody is (yet) forcing us to some "Big Brother knows best" mentality.

    Have a great night!!
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

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    I honestly can't say if I agree or disagree. I'll need to read the ruling. I saw a part of it and it seemed much of the ruling was based upon vagueness of unlawful use of a weapon. What happened. Was he transporting or sticking it in someone eye. I don't know. Does anyone know or is this just a continuation of vagueness. I suspect Chicago keeps it vague so they can apply charges that are convenient when they are feeling superior.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IllinoisCCW View Post
    Point taken. In your example I would send my firearms to out of state relatives. If that's not an option, yes I would comply...it's the law. I would not risk everything I own and imprisonment for a gun...sorry


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    Sorry IllinoisCCW, in the words of someone far greater than me, "From My Cold Dead Hands"!!!! Taking away our guns would just be a first step. After you turned in your guns to the Illinois authorities, would you sew some kind of an insignia on your and your family's clothing if the legislature made that a law too? Would you leave all your other possessions behind and march willingly to a "ghetto" because it became the law and you didn't want to break that law as well? How about boading a train and being relocated to another part of the state if it became the law? How about stripping down and marching off to the showers because the authorities said it was the "law"? Sounds rather absurd doesn't it? But it happened in the past. Just where do you draw the line?

    I, personally, draw it where they try to confiscate my guns!
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    IllinoisCCW: Thanks for the response--while you and I would disagree, both are "principled" positions (decisions based on "Principle" rather than a self-centered view). Again, that is one of the things that makes America great--nobody is (yet) forcing us to some "Big Brother knows best" mentality.

    Have a great night!!
    Thank you my friend. You too

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JDE101 View Post


    Sorry IllinoisCCW, in the words of someone far greater than me, "From My Cold Dead Hands"!!!! Taking away our guns would just be a first step. After you turned in your guns to the Illinois authorities, would you sew some kind of an insignia on your and your family's clothing if the legislature made that a law too? Would you leave all your other possessions behind and march willingly to a "ghetto" because it became the law and you didn't want to break that law as well? How about boading a train and being relocated to another part of the state if it became the law? How about stripping down and marching off to the showers because the authorities said it was the "law"? Sounds rather absurd doesn't it? But it happened in the past. Just where do you draw the line?

    I, personally, draw it where they try to confiscate my guns!
    At this point in time we don't live in that kind of world. Could it happen again? Yep! I honestly don't think we will get to that point in my life time so I really don't think about it. Now if it did, I may feel differently. I pray our world doesn't get there. Because if it does, we have a lot more to worry about that having your guns confiscated.

    I feel the problem in our time is that most people don't feel strongly enough about something to die over. We are a spoiled, lazy society with too many luxuries...me included. We take advantage of rights and freedoms that others in different parts of the world only dream about and in their case would die for. We complain when our 2nd A rights are violated when others in other countries are enslaved. Shame on us!

    Where do I draw the line? I dont have that right.

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Don't count on that if you are ever charged with a crime. Your defense attorney is forbidden to even
    suggest that to the jury and it won't be in the jury instructions. The judge will tell the jurors what the law
    is and can hold them in contempt (though it rarely happens) if they knowingly and deliberately ignore his
    jury instructions.
    First I would remind you that Might does not make Right. Secondly, I never said I would count on it. I said it is ignored by ignorant (and I will add) mislead jurors. I have been in courtrooms and personally heard a judge threaten all parties including the jurors with contempt for even asking about Jury Nullification, so I understand what you mean. However, the judges rightful place is to advise the jury about what the law is and how it applies to the case. He does not have the right to tell them how to decide. It is the jury's prerogative to decide the case. To threaten the jury under color of law is in my mind nothing less than jury tampering. Just because it is not used and unpopular with a court system is not justification for illegal incarceration. Of course, as you've suggested, most people are unwilling to give up their comfort for a moral cause, and I would probably lose at my trial for contempt because no one on the jury would even understand the issue. How ironic.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The judge's reason makes some basic sense to me; as he put the emphasis on the fact that the crime
    was a non-violent misdemeanor. OTOH, I'm still uncomfortable with anyone who knowingly and deliberately
    breaks a law with respect to weapons possession. I don't care if that's going to NYC armed or
    keeping a rifle in your house without a permit. Weapons laws --though often misguided-- are intended
    to help keep violence down,
    and those who would deliberately choose to break them are in my mind
    a little closer to the edge of violence than I would want them to be. Its not quite the same as getting a misdemeanor
    conviction for remodeling your basement without a building permit.
    Emphasis added

    Wow Hop!

    While I can't say that I always agree with you, I can usually see where you are coming from and respect your oppinions. This time though you are just plain in denial.

    It has been shown time and time again that "gun control" laws do nothing to curb violence. NOTHING. Yet legislators continue to try for more and more restrictive laws on firearms. This is either due to complete ignorance or to a willingness to eliminate the rights of the citizens there by controlling them.

    Granted, something needs to be said about the public continuing to vote for these people. I would have to question whether or not the "officials" in Chicago actually were voted for by the citizens(at least the living citizenry).
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