Warning!! Milwaukee gun range voluntarily reports law-abiding customers to police

This is a discussion on Warning!! Milwaukee gun range voluntarily reports law-abiding customers to police within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Sounds like the end of a gun range. I sure wouldn't go there. Vote with your feet....

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Thread: Warning!! Milwaukee gun range voluntarily reports law-abiding customers to police

  1. #61
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    Array bigdog44's Avatar
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    Sounds like the end of a gun range. I sure wouldn't go there. Vote with your feet.
    It's not a problem til they make it one!

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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    OTOH, I don't WANT the BGs getting practice.
    Nor do I. But the fallacy of such checks at ranges is that one doesn't need a formal range to practice shooting. Helps, and it's more convenient (at least for 'town' dwellers), but such checks at a place certainly won't stop them from honing their skills.

    Warrants once meant something.
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  4. #63
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Nor do I. But the fallacy of such checks at ranges is that one doesn't need a formal range to practice shooting. Helps, and it's more convenient (at least for 'town' dwellers), but such checks at a place certainly won't stop them from honing their skills.

    Warrants once meant something.
    Oh don't get me wrong. I do think that it's wrong for them to go behind peoples' backs. If they had a big sign saying that they were going to send their info in, then I doubt that anyone with a brain would want their name and frequency in some database. That HAS to violate something. I work for a phone company and if I were to even make the mistake of slipping with someone's personal information, even to law enforcement, then the company can get an astronomical fine and I wouldn't have a job if the customer found out the source, knew the law and pushed the issue. My "mixed feelings" comment was really just for pointing out the one good thing about it that I could see come out of it however bad the practice.
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  5. #64
    Senior Member Array Dennis1209's Avatar
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    You know, at first I was thinking this was outrageous. Then I started watching a bunch of those "Gangland" programs on Spike today and started to reconsider my initial thoughts.

    They're hundreds of different violent gangs in our cities, and literally tens of thousands gang-bangers. They also go to gun ranges to practice their illegal craft. They are reaping havoc on our cities and committing hundreds of murders and tens of thousands crimes.

    If the purpose of their actions of reporting their range visitors to identify / apprehend gang-bangers, what's wrong with that? As long as it doesn't adversely impact the rights and privacy of law abiding citizens, I can support and commend their stance. Perhaps they and their neighborhood are becoming victims of these very same patrons?

    Sound logical and reasonable?
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  6. #65
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    West Milwaukee gun shop resumes selling weapons - JSOnline

    I sent an email to the reporter from the article above. I asked him is he did any research on the legality of the police running such checks without probable cause. So far he has not replied to my email. Will keep you posted.

    Yes Brew City (aka Badger Guns) has you fill out a form to use the range however it does not state that the info will be given to the West Milwaukee Police Department or to any other 3rd party.

    As to the issue of nothing to hide. That is not the issue. The fact the police are running the checks without probable cause is the issue. The BS that they are looking for felons is just that BS. Too bad some law firm won't come along and file a civil rights law suit against the West Milwaukee Police chief/department. Many of the felons get range time by doing drive by shootings.

    I guess the following question needs to be asked. When will the "theys" stop making laws/doing things such as this that only really affect law abiding citizens? Haven't they seen that most of what they have done to reign in the criminals has no real effect. Criminals are like rats, they just keep multiplying. One problem "they" created that needs to be rectified is pleas bargains.
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    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    If the purpose of their actions of reporting their range visitors to identify / apprehend gang-bangers, what's wrong with that? As long as it doesn't adversely impact the rights and privacy of law abiding citizens ...
    ... as long as it doesn't adversely impact the privacy of law-abiding citizens. Exactly so. The broad-swath approach to rooting around for criminals, but where the group selected for scanning is: the general firearms-shooting population. I suppose one can debate whether unreasonable search is an adverse impact, but there it is.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  8. #67
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    Isn't it strange how when a few years back there was a huge outcry when the media found out that the Government was trying to access library records to see what citizens were reading. How they cries that the Government had no business checking up on citizens without some probable cause. Or the outrage caused when it was found out that the Government was checking on who was attending certain religious gatherings.

    I have no problem with a private business who while operating within the law does something like this. I do believe that they should should be required to tell you how your information is being used though. Like banks and many web sites do. However when the Government is behind it I have huge problems.

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  9. #68
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    Sound logical and reasonable?
    Not at all.

    Correct me if I am wrong. You want me to undergo a background check to prove that I am not a gang-banger? You are OK with violating my civil rights because of the actions of some thugs?

    You have lost sight of the process. The purpose of the range is NOT to identify gang bangers, the purpose of the range is to have a safe place to shoot.

    The fact that the range owner and the Police Chief are in cahoots does not make it OK. The Police Chief is in violation of at least one law, possibly more. The Range owner is in violation of adding and abetting and being an accessory to a crime. Sure they may get away with it for now, but at some point in time they will get busted and when they do, I sincerely hope that they get their sorry tails thrown in jail.

    Its obvious to me that the Police Chief thinks he is above the law as well as the range owner that is OK with it because its the "police chief".

    I would expect such action from corrupted third world countries such as Mexico, but as I stated earlier, the people of state of Minnesota deserve better than for the Police Chief to misappropriate funds or misuse a Crime Database. Something else to think about...

    since he is willing to do that, what else is he willing to do that is illegal?
    msgt/ret and Spirit51 like this.
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  10. #69
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    This is a Text Book case of Police 'Profiling', but you won't see the ACLU out complaining about it
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    I called the West Milwaukee police Chief 30 minutes ago. While he was polite he made it clear he is the law and will do what ever he wants and No one can stop him.
    His words were the only people that would be concerned are gun nuts. If the checks run us all off the better for him. Now he used many more words to say this but he was clear on where he stood. We are the enemy and he is the cure.
    He wins the gold for arrogance.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
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    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Think its that easy huh? You must still be in the Army.
    Hello from Afghanistan :) TaskForce White-Eagle in the house!

    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    One case of mistaken identity that I have personally been involved in.....
    I read your entire post, fyi, I just cropped it down in my reply for brevity.

    *****
    You're making a case against ever running a backround check at all, even just for periodic CCW renewals. If that's your opinion, more power to you, I can't say I disagree. I don't trust NCIS to keep me safe, I trust my Springfield and training to keep me safe.

    I don't see how this practice damages anyone. When I re-enter the country I'm going to have my criminal backround checked at least 5 times in the first month.
    • Once for re-verification through the foster system.
    • Once to renew my apartment lease (you can't live in my complex if you're a felon).
    • Once when I pick up my OEF commemorative Colt 1911.
    • Once when I use my current S&W.38 as a trade in for a new CCW .357 snub noes at a different dealer.
    • And finally when I apply for a certain V.A. housing benefit.


    And this is assuming the Sheriff doesn't run me through NCIS when I update my CCW address (moving to a pet-friendly apartment with the renewed lease), or the Army when they renew my security clearance.

    So what do I care if some range wants to add me to a list? How am I damaged? They can scan me all day every day, I don't care. It's the government checking government records, they're not getting into anything that belongs to me, they're looking through their own files, so I don't care.

  13. #72
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ANGLICO View Post
    This is a Text Book case of Police 'Profiling', but you won't see the ACLU out complaining about it
    I happen to fully support criminal profiling.

  14. #73
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    HUH ? In Georgia we just go in pay and shoot guns. They dont run crap on you. I dont understand why so many people choose to continue business at places like this after they know this happens? That place is still in business?

    On second thought I also believe that there are gun shops that are just ATF fronts for data collection facilities. I truly believe this 100%
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    So what do I care if some range wants to add me to a list? How am I damaged? They can scan me all day every day, I don't care. It's the government checking government records, they're not getting into anything that belongs to me, they're looking through their own files, so I don't care.
    Disagree with the logic.

    That's you, with a security clearance and chosen line of work, which has a validation process you've submitted to voluntarily via that career choice. That's rational and justifiable, I'd say, in exchange exchange for the access and responsibilities such training enables. As well, such voluntary exchange and association can be strongly argued to be a constitutionally protected right we all have.

    Scanning, checking, validating everyone who purchases lawful things at a store or visits a place, though, is something else entirely. Doing so without regard to the specific person and thing to be searched is, it seems to me, clearly unconstitutional. But specifically with the keeping and bearing of arms, it's a protected right, something we've sworn to ourselves as citizens that we'd never let be infringed.

    And yet, because some don't feel they're damaged, it's okay to commit broad, non-specific scans of all people in conflict with the 4A?
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  16. #75
    Ex Member Array ArmyMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Disagree with the logic.

    That's you,
    Well HotGuns was singling me out already, so of course I'm going to respond in kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    ..with a security clearance and chosen line of work, which has a validation process you've submitted to voluntarily via that career choice.
    The Army doesn't ask you if you want a clearance. They just do it as a part of MEPS. If you never do anything with it, no big deal, but they just run the paperwork anyway and they renew it anyway whether the soldier likes it or not; because if the Army wants to have a clearance so they can order you to do a job, they will. No I happen to use that clearance, but no solder has a choice in whether or not to get it. Your background is run regardless of your consent.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Scanning, checking, validating everyone who purchases lawful things at a store or visits a place, though, is something else entirely. Doing so without regard to the specific person and thing to be searched is, it seems to me, clearly unconstitutional. But specifically with the keeping and bearing of arms, it's a protected right, something we've sworn to ourselves as citizens that we'd never let be infringed.

    And yet, because some don't feel they're damaged, it's okay to commit broad, non-specific scans of all people in conflict with the 4A?
    Again, how is anyone harmed? Tell me that. Make your case. Why should I or anyone else care? Give us cause to act on this instead of just say 'if you don't like it, don't go there'.

    I know I can come off ruff at times, but I'm not trying to be an ass here. I need something real to act on. 'They're violating my rights' is a nice bumper-sticker, but it's generic, non-specific, victimless.

    If, for example, NCIS flags you if your name is ran so many times in, say, a month, just like how your credit rating takes a small hit every time it's checked, then that would be a damage to the range patron I could get behind.

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