Background checks & forms to purchase handguns

This is a discussion on Background checks & forms to purchase handguns within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Doesn't this equal gun registration? If the background shows someone is a felon or others reasons they are not allowed a firearm shouldn't that be ...

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Thread: Background checks & forms to purchase handguns

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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Background checks & forms to purchase handguns

    Doesn't this equal gun registration? If the background shows someone is a felon or others reasons they are not allowed a firearm shouldn't that be sufficient. Why should the form require make/model/serial number for the law abiding citizen. It sure is not needed if someone is denied via the background check since they are not allowed to buy. Truthfully there should be no paper trail when a law abiding citizen actually purchases a weapon.

    No way can we say we are not being infringed.

    Firearms Transaction Record Form 4473
    Form 4473 contains name, address, date of birth, government-issued photo ID, National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) background check transaction number, make/model/serial number of the firearm, and a short federal affidavit stating that the purchaser is eligible to purchase firearms under federal law.
    Form 4473 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    In addition, the sale of two or more handguns to a person in a five day period must be reported to ATF on Form 3310.4. The original is sent to ATF’s National Tracing Center by fax or by mail, a copy is to be sent to the designated State police or the local law enforcement agency in the jurisdiction where the sale took place, the remaining copy is to be retained in the records of the dealer and held for not less than 5 years.
    Form 3310.4 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
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    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    From what I have read, the form 4473 stays with the dealer. It is not registration in that it is not submitted and placed in any sort of database (or at least it is not supposed to be). However, it can be used as registraion after the fact. If a gun is used in a crime, the ownership trail will likely be persued. The same source that I was reading about the form 4473 from (I can't recall where it was) also said that more often than not, the trail goes cold quickly.

    The form 3310.4 certainly looks like a registration form to me, or at least contains the information of a registration: who, what, when, where.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    Truthfully there should be no paper trail when a law abiding citizen actually purchases a weapon.
    And there isn't one, when a citizen purchases directly from a citizen (in states that recognize this) ... as it should be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    And there isn't one, when a citizen purchases directly from a citizen (in states that recognize this) ... as it should be.
    I have decided to buy almost all my guns this way from now on. No paper work, paper trail, no tax, no $10 background check, no transfer fee's. Hope we can keep this right with all this crazy anti gun crap going on.
    The stupidity of some people NEVER ceases to amaze me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post
    I have decided to buy almost all my guns this way from now on. No paper work, paper trail, no tax, no $10 background check, no transfer fee's. Hope we can keep this right with all this crazy anti gun crap going on.
    yep!

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    Quote Originally Posted by miller_man View Post
    I have decided to buy almost all my guns this way from now on. No paper work, paper trail, no tax, no $10 background check, no transfer fee's. Hope we can keep this right with all this crazy anti gun crap going on.
    That's great as long as you get sellers information,If they don't want to show you a valid ID there may be a good reason.
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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    From what I have read, the form 4473 stays with the dealer. It is not registration in that it is not submitted and placed in any sort of database (or at least it is not supposed to be). However, it can be used as registration after the fact. If a gun is used in a crime, the ownership trail will likely be pursued. The same source that I was reading about the form 4473 from (I can't recall where it was) also said that more often than not, the trail goes cold quickly.
    Agreed it is not officially registration but I don't think you could any closer to it.

    The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business.

    Basically it is becoming extremely difficult to prevent the government from knowing you own a weapon. Even buying privately is not a sure bet. Only way to do that is you would have to buy a weapon privately (if allowed in your state) from someone that did not buy that weapon from a gun dealer. If they did buy it from a gun dealer they will knock on his door looking for the gun and they will send them to you.

    I believe the system in place (the forms) is an infringement of the 2nd amendment.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    I believe the system in place (the forms) is an infringement of the 2nd amendment.
    How exactly do forms infringe upon a "well-regulated militia"? Do you know what a "regulation" is?

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    They claim no record is kept of the weapons you buy after the check...but we know better came up some years ago during some of the Brady stuff they had the records name serial number every last detail.
    Of course they said they would never use it .
    tricolordad likes this.

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    Member Array tricolordad's Avatar
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    Last purchase i made the fleet farm employee TOLD me it went to the ATF which i expected it would anyways. This is how the UN is planning to get to those of us who "own" guns. Good luck with that "General" Ban Ki-Moon. His name certainly fits the occasion...

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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrwizr View Post
    How exactly do forms infringe upon a "well-regulated militia"? Do you know what a "regulation" is?
    I am not speaking of a well regulated militia.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrwizr View Post
    How exactly do forms infringe upon a "well-regulated militia"? Do you know what a "regulation" is?
    Careful, here. The words "well regulated" in the vernacular of 1788 have nothing to do with civil regulations, but everything to do with "well-trained" and "well-disciplined." The former interpretation is a common pitfall of the sophomoric, leftist interpretations of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    If in doubt, go find a copy of the Anti-Federalist Papers, and you'll see that the Second Amendment which survived is a watered-down version of what had been proposed.
    atctimmy and ArmyMan like this.
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    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    They claim no record is kept of the weapons you buy after the check...but we know better came up some years ago during some of the Brady stuff they had the records name serial number every last detail.
    Of course they said they would never use it .
    "Their" claim was a lie. It appears the dealer has to keep the copy of the form and also enters all data from the form into his "bound-book" (what ever that is). A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business. The ATF is allowed to inspect, as well as request a copy of the Form 4473 from the dealer during the course of a criminal investigation.
    Form 4473 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here is a PDF of Form 4473 which shows all the info they have on someone that purchases a weapon from a gun store.
    http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

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    Ex Member Array ANGLICO's Avatar
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    When the hammer falls. 'They' will go to all the know Firearms dealers and pull the books, then start door to door. Ya Betch Ya.

    This may seem far feched to some of you. But if you live in CA or NY, 'They' will test this until the court system shuts them down, and then it will be too late.

    I fully advocate buying everything you own leagally, considering your specific state laws, but be forewarned.

    As the OP has stated, there is a paper trail and that paper trail must be surrendered to the Govt when asked for.

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    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    Agreed it is not officially registration but I don't think you could any closer to it.

    The dealer also records all information from the Form 4473 into their "bound-book". A dealer must keep this log the entire time they are in business and is required to surrender the log to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) upon retirement from the firearms business.

    Basically it is becoming extremely difficult to prevent the government from knowing you own a weapon. Even buying privately is not a sure bet. Only way to do that is you would have to buy a weapon privately (if allowed in your state) from someone that did not buy that weapon from a gun dealer. If they did buy it from a gun dealer they will knock on his door looking for the gun and they will send them to you.

    I believe the system in place (the forms) is an infringement of the 2nd amendment.
    Here, anyone with a CCW has to bring in their weapon to be recorded for addition to the license. And DL info, and full hand prints, and your info sent off to the DOJ. So on a smaller scale, those who have CCW's are pretty much known to have weapons. I really don't worry about it too much just because 100% of the population decides not to own them.
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