Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say you can bear arms for personnel protection?

This is a discussion on Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say you can bear arms for personnel protection? within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by suntzu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I don't believe I missed the mark on anything. I asked the question more to generate conversation. This started with ...

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Thread: Where in the 2nd Amendment does it say you can bear arms for personnel protection?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I don't believe I missed the mark on anything. I asked the question more to generate conversation. This started with folks in another thread saying that companies are infringing on folks rights or denying them the right to protect themselves as employees or patrons of an establishment. I beleive that is wrong and that only the government can deny rights and that we have free will to choose what level pf protections we want.
    "Of course a person has the right to tell someone no guns on their property or their business. And they always should. That is not denying them a right. The person has a choice to come to my house or work. Only the government can deny you a right."

    Suntzu.. I'm reading conflicting positions here. Is it wrong for a business to deny right of protection or Right to say you can and can't carry at a place of business.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPro.40 View Post
    "Of course a person has the right to tell someone no guns on their property or their business. And they always should. That is not denying them a right. The person has a choice to come to my house or work. Only the government can deny you a right."

    Suntzu.. I'm reading conflicting positions here. Is it wrong for a business to deny right of protection or Right to say you can and can't carry at a place of business.
    I am not going to get into a war of words and meanings. My postion is 100 percent very clear:
    1: A business or owner of any property should have the right to say no guns. It is their property. You do not have to go to my house or place of business. You choose to.
    2: I beleive in the 2nd A 100 percent. It says the government can not deny you the right. I don't care if a blind lady owns an uzi. I don't want that blind lady carrying an Uzi in my house or place of business. The 2 A does not say squat about me refusing you service based on your rights under the 2A

    If folks want to continue this workplace.private ownership debate they can go back to the other thread.
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  4. #63
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I of course have the right to deny you access to my property and/or putting a condition on you entering my house/property/business. If that means I say no guns, then you have a choice, stay and abide by my rules or don;t stay. If you don't understand that too bad. If you don't understand my choice of words too bad.
    When I talk about the government denying you rights it is is by force or legislation. Like NO ONE can have a gun. Or the government decides it can invade your house and take your arms by force.
    The real trick is knowing whether I have a gun when I enter your house/property or business. 'Rules' do not supercede rights.

    I don't know what you mean by "too bad", but it also does not supercede rights.

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    The real trick is knowing whether I have a gun when I enter your house/property or business. 'Rules' do not supercede rights.

    I don't know what you mean by "too bad", but it also does not supercede rights.
    There is no trick. If you are in a state where signs have the force of law you are a criminal. If you come onto someones property and they know you are carrying for whatever reason then they can tell you to leave. If you know before hand that someone does not allow guns (like my dad) and you enter the property then that just makes you inconsiderate. When he asks you to leave then you are breaking the law.
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  6. #65
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I don't believe I missed the mark on anything. I asked the question more to generate conversation. This started with folks in another thread saying that companies are infringing on folks rights or denying them the right to protect themselves as employees or patrons of an establishment. I beleive that is wrong and that only the government can deny rights and that we have free will to choose what level pf protections we want.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I am not going to get into a war of words and meanings. My postion is 100 percent very clear:
    1: A business or owner of any property should have the right to say no guns. It is their property. You do not have to go to my house or place of business. You choose to.
    2: I beleive in the 2nd A 100 percent. It says the government can not deny you the right. I don't care if a blind lady owns an uzi. I don't want that blind lady carrying an Uzi in my house or place of business. The 2 A does not say squat about me refusing you service based on your rights under the 2A

    If folks want to continue this workplace.private ownership debate they can go back to the other thread.
    I was just asking for clarity as I was reading two diggerent conflicting positions. I appreciate the straight up response. On the same token, if you didn't want anyone to question, you should have justed posted on the other tread. You asked, we replied.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
    Ronald Reagan

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    This is getting off topic as far as I am concerned. There is another thread running to discuss 2A rights in the workplace/private property and that is going nowhere.

    And I of course agree the 2A is for self defense. I was just posing a question because folks here always say that I have a right to defend myself under the 2A. I just wanted some discussion on that, Whether ones rights (all of them, not just the 2A) are to be honored by private individuals and business's is another subject. Under the law one can not discriminate because of religion. But I don't have to give them Christmas off or Sundays off if that is what they beleive. Same thing about gun owners (who are not a protected class). I don't give a hoot if you own a bazooka. Just leave it then car while youu are at work if that is what the owner wants.

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPro.40 View Post
    I was just asking for clarity as I was reading two diggerent conflicting positions. I appreciate the straight up response. On the same token, if you didn't want anyone to question, you should have justed posted on the other tread. You asked, we replied.
    I was replying to a specific post. I should have just blown it off since I think the guy is baiting me LOL. I think I am pretty straightforward on that issue. Sorry if you thought I was snippy at you.

  9. #68
    Senior Member Array DPro.40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I don't believe I missed the mark on anything. I asked the question more to generate conversation. This started with folks in another thread saying that companies are infringing on folks rights or denying them the right to protect themselves as employees or patrons of an establishment. I beleive that is wrong and that only the government can deny rights and that we have free will to choose what level pf protections we want.
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I was replying to a specific post. I should have just blown it off since I think the guy is baiting me LOL. I think I am pretty straightforward on that issue. Sorry if you thought I was snippy at you.
    No apology necessary. Thanks for the consideration.
    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same.
    Ronald Reagan

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    Property rights are limited by society. In my state, there is no 'right to ban guns on private property' (or business). There is, however, a right to carry guns -- even while on private property (or a business). This is the way we like it in my state, and in many other states.

    Once again, you miss the mark: Rights do not magically disappear when you cross a private property line. Also, you repeat your odd, contradictory way of thinking. On the one hand, you think that property owners have the right to tell others 'no guns on my property', and on the other hand you state "Only the government can deny you a right."
    Does your state have trespassing laws? Do those laws specify the reasons a person can be ordered to leave private property? What about castle doctrine? In all states I am familiar with you do not have a right to be on my private property. You are only allowed on my property by my consent. If I have the right to be on your property I could not be trespassing, nor could I commit a burglary. How could it be burglary if I have the right to be there?

    You have no obligation to come into my home or my business so you are not being denied anything by a requirement to disarm to enter. You have the option to not enter and to go somewhere else if you choose. That is your choice. The key word being choice. To deny you a right you have to eliminate choice from the equation.
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  11. #70
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I am not going to get into a war of words and meanings. My postion is 100 percent very clear:
    1: A business or owner of any property should have the right to say no guns. It is their property. You do not have to go to my house or place of business. You choose to.
    2: I beleive in the 2nd A 100 percent. It says the government can not deny you the right. I don't care if a blind lady owns an uzi. I don't want that blind lady carrying an Uzi in my house or place of business. The 2 A does not say squat about me refusing you service based on your rights under the 2A

    If folks want to continue this workplace.private ownership debate they can go back to the other thread.
    Enough with "property rights of businesses", as the owner of a business open to the public can I bar certain racial/ethic/religious persons? Can I build my building without handy capped restrooms or parking spaces? Can I have no wheelchair ramps? Can I put my shelving close together with less than ADA mandated wide isles? Can I ................................... The list of government requirements on businesses is multiple pages long; it has already been decided that businesses open to the public give up many "property rights".
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  12. #71
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Enough with "property rights of businesses", as the owner of a business open to the public can I bar certain racial/ethic/religious persons? Can I build my building without handy capped restrooms or parking spaces? Can I have no wheelchair ramps? Can I put my shelving close together with less than ADA mandated wide isles? Can I ................................... The list of government requirements on businesses is multiple pages long; it has already been decided that businesses open to the public give up many "property rights".
    For a very lively discussion and one filled with posts by me you can go visit:
    Extension of the workplace...Can an employer prohibit carry?

    I think it sums up my views and others just fine. And like I told someone else...get over it, you are not being discriminated against, they just don't want your gun.

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Enough with "property rights of businesses", as the owner of a business open to the public can I bar certain racial/ethic/religious persons? Can I build my building without handy capped restrooms or parking spaces? Can I have no wheelchair ramps? Can I put my shelving close together with less than ADA mandated wide isles? Can I ................................... The list of government requirements on businesses is multiple pages long; it has already been decided that businesses open to the public give up many "property rights".
    All of those decisions are unconstitutional pieces of garbage where enforced by the federal government, and as far as the states go, are things that just shouldn't be done. Allowing people to nominally own property but only run it in accordance with the wishes of the government is called fascism. Using the power of government to force businesses to accept you and your weapons on THEIR property whether they like it or not follows the exact same principle. Your 2A rights are just another arm of your property rights in general, and accepting the principle that your property rights get to be arbitrarily decided by the government is accepting the exact same principle that gun-grabbing statists use to try and tell you that you can have a gun in your house but not carry it, or use it to defend yourself, or you have to keep it locked and unloaded, or maybe that you just plain can't have it. All of it is property rights, and if we are to keep any semblance of freedom in this country it is long past time people figure out what property rights are and start to RESPECT THEM.
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    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Enough with "property rights of businesses", as the owner of a business open to the public can I bar certain racial/ethic/religious persons? Can I build my building without handy capped restrooms or parking spaces? Can I have no wheelchair ramps? Can I put my shelving close together with less than ADA mandated wide isles? Can I ................................... The list of government requirements on businesses is multiple pages long; it has already been decided that businesses open to the public give up many "property rights".
    And under which federal law is a person carrying a firearm defined as a protected class? All of the categories you have listed are protected classes under various federal laws. Other than religion they are issues of biology, not of behavior. Carrying weapons is behavior.

    Based on your avatar I take it you are not a fan of the current resident of the White House. Are you saying that since you have a business open to the public he could hold a fundraiser in your place of business without your permission? Freedom of speech right? First amendment!
    No, he can't. You can decide what behavior is allowed in your place of business. If he wants to do a fund raiser in your place he must get your permission.
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  15. #74
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    All of those decisions are unconstitutional pieces of garbage where enforced by the federal government, and as far as the states go, are things that just shouldn't be done. Allowing people to nominally own property but only run it in accordance with the wishes of the government is called fascism. Using the power of government to force businesses to accept you and your weapons on THEIR property whether they like it or not follows the exact same principle. Your 2A rights are just another arm of your property rights in general, and accepting the principle that your property rights get to be arbitrarily decided by the government is accepting the exact same principle that gun-grabbing statists use to try and tell you that you can have a gun in your house but not carry it, or use it to defend yourself, or you have to keep it locked and unloaded, or maybe that you just plain can't have it. All of it is property rights, and if we are to keep any semblance of freedom in this country it is long past time people figure out what property rights are and start to RESPECT THEM.
    Never said I agreed with it; it's just the way it has been allowed to be, as long as we are here I don't see a problem with requiring businesses open to the public to be open to EVERYONE! I see nothing wrong in using existing laws I don't agree with to get what I favor.

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    2A says I can keep and bear arms. No reason need be given; it's my right.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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