running of serial number

This is a discussion on running of serial number within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by suntzu Ok, I'll buy the opinion of the ATF.....If I want a second I will go to Eric Holder. Not arguing just ...

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Thread: running of serial number

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Ok, I'll buy the opinion of the ATF.....If I want a second I will go to Eric Holder. Not arguing just want to see it with my own eyes. Plenty of folks according to your IOI are in violation of law then by utilizing certain grips on different guns. I guess you go your way and I will go mine on this one.

    I don't see how "alter" in any sense of the English language can be confused with "covering"..you intentionally cover your sn when in a holster. Since you have a POC on this issue would yoou mind asking her if you put on different grips and it covers the sn if that is illegal? It would be nice to know.

    As far as the issue at hand, it is her opinion it sounds like. Many times a LEO arrests someone to only find out their opinion on the law or understanding was incorrect. In fact, it seems to happen more so with gun laws than many other laws.
    This is where the magical mind reading abilities of the Government to determine intent come into play.

    Michael

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  3. #62
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I called my IOI (Industry Operations Inspector) about the tape thing. Luckily for me,she had just returned from dove hunting. She specifically stated that intentionally covering a number to hid it from plain veiw was consided altering a number and even if it was temporary it didnt matter. She was very clear on this.

    Since its the ATF that makes the rules and interpret them, thats good enough for me.

    Y'all do and think whatever you want to.
    I have no doubt your Industry Operations Investigator told you that intentionally covering up a serial number with removable tape is considered altering a number but my issues are that IOIs focus on industry, not end users. This thread started with an inquiry from someone at the end user level. If your IOI quoted another existing law or at least something in the Code of Federal Regulations it would more credible. I am sure your IOI is a nice person and means well but I want to see something more than someone's opinion if I am being expected to do (or not do) something under the color of law.

    As I said previously though, I have no reason to use tape to cover a serial number.

    From ATF website:

    Industry Operations Investigators
    Industry operations investigators are the backbone of the ATF regulatory mission. Their work is primarily investigative and routinely involves contact with, and interviews of, individuals from all walks of life and all levels of industry and government. Investigations and inspections pertain to the industries and persons regulated by ATF (e.g., firearms and explosives users, dealers, importers, exporters, manufacturers, wholesalers, etc.); and are under the jurisdiction of the Gun Control Act, National Firearms Act, Arms Export Control Act, Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 and other Federal firearms and explosives laws and regulations.

    The incumbent:

    Conducts investigations and inspections designed to carry out the Federal government's regulatory responsibilities pertaining to the firearms and explosives industries. Identifies evidence of falsification of records, inventories and document discrepancies through the analysis and examination of records, documents, and reports. Refers violations to special agents for further action.

    Determines if persons desiring to enter business in the regulated industries meet established legal requirements for obtaining a federal permit or license. Conducts interviews, inspects buildings, and performs routine background investigations to determine suitability. Prepares reports detailing results of investigations and inspections, and recommends further action when necessary.

    Utilizes knowledge of the Federal and state laws involving commerce in alcohol and tobacco, provides assistance to senior industry operations investigators, who are working with special agents on alcohol and tobacco diversion investigations. Verifies inventories and utilizes intelligence data to analyze records and examine business operations.

    Participates in conferences and discussions with Bureau officials concerning investigations and inspections. May develop presentations for industry associations and the public.

    See ATF Online - Careers - Industry Operations Investigators

  4. #63
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyMan View Post
    A cop can just remove the tape since they have the right to make sure the serial number hasn't been tampered with. Once the tape is so removed, the number is in plain view and the cop can run it.

    So much fuss of a cop running a number. This is a trivial and petty thing to fight the system over. Do what you want, I guess, it's your bail.
    And what REASONABLE ARTICULATABLE SUSPICION would he have that the serial number had been tampered with? Using your "they have the right to make sure the serial number hasn't been tampered with" they have the "right" to stop cars and make sure the vin has not been tampered with.

    And by the way- government and their minions DO NOT have rights, they have authority!

  5. #64
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    And what REASONABLE ARTICULATABLE SUSPICION would he have that the serial number had been tampered with? Using your "they have the right to make sure the serial number hasn't been tampered with" they have the "right" to stop cars and make sure the vin has not been tampered with.

    And by the way- government and their minions DO NOT have rights, they have authority!
    Or as is often the case believe they have authority.

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    This is where the magical mind reading abilities of the Government to determine intent come into play.

    Michael
    I am not debating that at all. What I want to see is someone to show me where it says you can not cover your serial number. All we have is ONE person who works for the ATF to make their opinion of what the law is. She does not speak for the ATF as a whole (I would assume). No legal eagle here but "alter does not even come close to any definition of "cover" that I can find.

    Alter: Change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.
    Make structural changes to

    Cover:
    Put something such as a cloth or lid on top of or in front of (something) in order to protect or conceal it.

    They are not even in the same grid square, not even on the same planet. It is not like their is a subtle difference in terminology here. Five bucks says I can find a LEO or two in the next 2 hours thhat would say having a piece of tape on the sn is stupid but not illegal. And that is one I would stand up to in court.

  7. #66
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I am not debating that at all. What I want to see is someone to show me where it says you can not cover your serial number. All we have is ONE person who works for the ATF to make their opinion of what the law is. She does not speak for the ATF as a whole (I would assume). No legal eagle here but "alter does not even come close to any definition of "cover" that I can find.

    Alter: Change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.
    Make structural changes to

    Cover:
    Put something such as a cloth or lid on top of or in front of (something) in order to protect or conceal it.

    They are not even in the same grid square, not even on the same planet. It is not like their is a subtle difference in terminology here. Five bucks says I can find a LEO or two in the next 2 hours thhat would say having a piece of tape on the sn is stupid but not illegal. And that is one I would stand up to in court.
    What? Words having meaning? Say it isn't so...

  8. #67
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I called my IOI (Industry Operations Inspector) about the tape thing. Luckily for me,she had just returned from dove hunting. She specifically stated that intentionally covering a number to hid it from plain veiw was consided altering a number and even if it was temporary it didnt matter. She was very clear on this.

    Since its the ATF that makes the rules and interpret them, thats good enough for me.

    Y'all do and think whatever you want to.
    So then all those target grips on S&W revolvers are illegal?? My wife's S&W 642 CT came from S&W with grips that cover the serial number on the butt as do most of them, is that illegal???

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    So then all those target grips on S&W revolvers are illegal?? My wife's S&W 642 CT came from S&W with grips that cover the serial number on the butt as do most of them, is that illegal???
    Guess so,,,that was what I was getting at.....I would think that an IOI would be aware of after market products that hide serial numbers....

  10. #69
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I called my IOI (Industry Operations Inspector) about the tape thing. Luckily for me,she had just returned from dove hunting. She specifically stated that intentionally covering a number to hid it from plain veiw was consided altering a number and even if it was temporary it didnt matter. She was very clear on this.

    Since its the ATF that makes the rules and interpret them, thats good enough for me.

    Y'all do and think whatever you want to.
    The above posted TODAY; LABOR DAY, you found a federal employee at work today

  11. #70
    Member Array linuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    So you will lie to the law enforcement officer during an investigation? and say you don't have one? that will land you in jail, and because you have a firearm, it has now become a felony.
    They don't have to answer your question as to whether or not they're armed. The right to remain silent and the Constitutional right to not incriminate yourself don't kick in when you're arrested, they're always present. If you ask if I have a weapon and I refuse to answer, there's not a darn thing you can do about it that won't open you up to a civil rights lawsuit.

    It's not lying, it's refusing to answer a question that can be used to incriminate myself. Courts will hold that up every day of the week.

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    In essence what everyone is saying here is that you better succumb to the system whether you like it or not....whether you're within your rights to refuse, or make waves with your local constabulary. Let this be a lesson of what's to come.......if you're a free and law abiding man....you're living on borrowed time. Take that word for word. Law enforcement is trained to treat everyone as an enemy first. The institution in itself is becoming elitist in ways. I see what happens once they get off work and head home like the rest of us four days a week. There are idealists and then there are part time purists. You never know which one you're going to cross paths with. Last LEO pulled me over stopped in the middle of the railroad tracks behind me. Not very wise IMO. Training? Possibly in some areas. But there's not one human being alive that knows each and every law at the time.....it's impossible. We all need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and quit thinking that others already are. I back LE 100% in their job....but apparently many of the ranks and files are taking a fall and going to prison with their fallen brethren. Aint lookin purdy.
    Just the truth. I could go on.
    suntzu likes this.

  13. #72
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    The above posted TODAY; LABOR DAY, you found a federal employee at work today
    Are you kiddin?

    She was off like all the rest. I've got her on speed dial. We talk a lot.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  14. #73
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    What will the Officer do when they run the number and they do not find that the firearm was purchased by the person they took it from? Something I have often wondered about when this is discussed.

    Michael
    You could be serious trouble.

    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    They have ABSOLUTLY no way to know that, as someone who worked in a gun shop for a while and had to participate in numerous gun traces. ATF calls the manufacturer who tells them what distributor the gun was shipped to; call the distributor to see what dealer they shipped it to; call the dealer to go through 4473s/bluebook and see who it was sold to: no way that could be done during a traffic stop.
    That depends on what state you are in.
    In Maryland all "restriced firearms" handguns, certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns are in fact in a database maintained by the Maryland State Police. Private transfers of "restricted firearms" have been regulated since ( I think ) 2000. Since that time all private sales must either go through an FFL who will submit paperwork to MSP or you and the person you dealing with could go to a barrack and have the troopers do the paperwork. Officers or dispatchers that know how can access that database in about thirty seconds. A simple NCIC check would just give either a "no record" or a hit. If they went in the MGUN database they can see who bought it, when they bought it, who they bought it from, when the application was "not disapproved" etc.

    So if you live in Maryland and are sitting on the side of the road with a handgun that was sold to me new in 2005, you have a problem.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  15. #74
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    That is ridiculous.
    The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it...- George Orwell

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  16. #75
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    It is illegal (federal law) to obscure a serial number. Thinking that placing a peice of tape over it to keep it hidden from plain view is one of the most laughable things I have ever heard.

    I guarantee you that if I saw an obscured number on a gun, that alone would be PC to run the number. No one in their right mind does such a thing.



    We aren't there yet. At least not in this neck of the woods.
    Painting over the SN would be obscuring, covering with tape would hardly be the same, if it is all S&W revolvers with over-sized grips are illegal. If covering the SN with tape gives PC to remove the tape and search, then does refusing consensual search of a vehicle give PC to search?????

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