running of serial number

This is a discussion on running of serial number within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by mcp1810 You could be serious trouble. That depends on what state you are in. In Maryland all "restriced firearms" handguns, certain semiautomatic ...

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  1. #76
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    You could be serious trouble.


    That depends on what state you are in.
    In Maryland all "restriced firearms" handguns, certain semiautomatic rifles and shotguns are in fact in a database maintained by the Maryland State Police. Private transfers of "restricted firearms" have been regulated since ( I think ) 2000. Since that time all private sales must either go through an FFL who will submit paperwork to MSP or you and the person you dealing with could go to a barrack and have the troopers do the paperwork. Officers or dispatchers that know how can access that database in about thirty seconds. A simple NCIC check would just give either a "no record" or a hit. If they went in the MGUN database they can see who bought it, when they bought it, who they bought it from, when the application was "not disapproved" etc.

    So if you live in Maryland and are sitting on the side of the road with a handgun that was sold to me new in 2005, you have a problem.
    Was mlr1m in Maryland?

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  3. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Painting over the SN would be obscuring, covering with tape would hardly be the same, if it is all S&W revolvers with over-sized grips are illegal.
    I better take the Hogue grips off my High Power.


    If covering the SN with tape gives PC to remove the tape and search, then does refusing consensual search of a vehicle give PC to search?????

    The courts have ruled no, many Officers however continue to argue it is ........... the same ones who're fond of the saying "You may beat the rap but not the ride."
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  4. #78
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    State databases do not matter.

    1. They cannot capture eveyone within a state lawfully moving in/residing there.

    2. Such searches are rendered irrelevent by FOPA or reciprocity or automatic recognition of another state's firearms permit (to carry).

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    Was mlr1m in Maryland?
    And the next sentence was.....?

    Are you saying that no state other than Maryland has a database and that this potential problem could not possibly impact any members who are not in Maryland?
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    The fuss is it is taking up my personal time, has nothing to do with the stop , and has nothing to do with officer safety to run the number. It is a fishing expedition. Do you want to spend time having them check out sn's of a TV that they can read that is sitting on your back seat?
    The fuss is how this person was treated and some of the unprofessional comments made during their stop of this individual.

  7. #81
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    State databases do not matter.

    1. They cannot capture eveyone within a state lawfully moving in/residing there.

    2. Such searches are rendered irrelevent by FOPA or reciprocity or automatic recognition of another state's firearms permit (to carry).
    Yes and no. Not all states have reciprocity. What I was writing about with Maryland is primarily a concern for Maryland residents because Maryland does not have reciprocity with any other states. If you are carrying in Maryland it is on a Maryland license or LEOSA credentials. If you moved to Maryland all the weapons you previously had are not in the database and are not a problem. The problem is that if you were found with a handgun that I purchased new from a Maryland dealer in 2005 (if I still live there) there is no way for you to legally acquire that handgun without it being processed through an FFL or MSP and the gun now being in your name. If you were found with a handgun that is not in the database that is no big deal. The problem is being found with one that is in the database but is listed to someone else and was listed to them after unregistered transactions were banned.

    You would have had to either purchase it illegally from me or steal it from me.

    Same thing in any state that has listings of whatever they consider to be restricted weapons.
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  8. #82
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Yes and no. Not all states have reciprocity. What I was writing about with Maryland is primarily a concern for Maryland residents because Maryland does not have reciprocity with any other states. If you are carrying in Maryland it is on a Maryland license or LEOSA credentials. If you moved to Maryland all the weapons you previously had are not in the database and are not a problem. The problem is that if you were found with a handgun that I purchased new from a Maryland dealer in 2005 (if I still live there) there is no way for you to legally acquire that handgun without it being processed through an FFL or MSP and the gun now being in your name. If you were found with a handgun that is not in the database that is no big deal. The problem is being found with one that is in the database but is listed to someone else and was listed to them after unregistered transactions were banned.

    You would have had to either purchase it illegally from me or steal it from me.

    Same thing in any state that has listings of whatever they consider to be restricted weapons.
    You completely disregarded FOPA unless no one other than Marylanders travel in Maryland!

  9. #83
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    I think it's bogus to have a gun's serial number checked during a traffic stop if the person has a valid permit. I have a more serious issue with being disarmed during a traffic stop. I don't know the officer's experience level with firearms, particularly mine. Last thing that I want is a ND.
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  10. #84
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotMallNinja View Post
    You completely disregarded FOPA unless no one other than Marylanders travel in Maryland!
    That is because in the circumstances I described FOPA is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So if you live in Maryland and are sitting on the side of the road with a handgun that was sold to me new in 2005, you have a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    If you moved to Maryland all the weapons you previously had are not in the database and are not a problem. The problem is that if you were found with a handgun that I purchased new from a Maryland dealer in 2005 (if I still live there) there is no way for you to legally acquire that handgun without it being processed through an FFL or MSP and the gun now being in your name. If you were found with a handgun that is not in the database that is no big deal. The problem is being found with one that is in the database but is listed to someone else and was listed to them after unregistered transactions were banned.

    You would have had to either purchase it illegally from me or steal it from me.

    Same thing in any state that has listings of whatever they consider to be restricted weapons.
    The circumstances I described are residents of Maryland being stopped by police in Maryland. FOPA means nothing because this is not about the transportation of a weapon in interstate commerce. FOPA only protects you in states you don't live in. In fact it does not have to be about transportation of the weapon at all. Your simple posession of the weapon listed to me is the crime. Even sitting in your own home.
    If your concern is about the database, the restrictions in FOPA are only applicable to federal agencies. State and local jurisdictions can register and keep all the records they want.

    As far as people putting tape or anything over the serial numbers on weapons........
    From United States v Carter (9th cir)
    We hold that, for the purposes of Guideline  2K2.1(b)(4), a firearm's serial number is “altered or obliterated” when it is materially changed in a way that makes accurate information less accessible.   We further hold that, under that standard, a serial number which is not discernable to the unaided eye, but which remains detectable via microscopy, is altered or obliterated.   Here, Carter concedes that the serial number on the firearm he possessed is “not decipherable by the naked eye.”   Accordingly, we affirm the district court's imposition of the sentence enhancement.
    From the 5th we have United States v Perez
    Turning to the instant case, Perez does not dispute that the serial number
    on his firearm looked like someone “tried to file [it] off,” as the district court
    found, or that it “appeared to be altered and partially obliterated, as if somebody
    had attempted to scratch the numbers off,” as the PSR stated. Accordingly, the
    district court did not err in finding that the serial number of the firearm Perez
    possessed had been materially changed in a way that made its accurate
    information less accessible, and that it had been “altered or obliterated” for
    purposes of 2K2.1(b)(4).
    The common thread being making the serial number less accessible to the naked eye is a bad thing. They might have a problem with tape, they might not.
    If anyone knows of any case law where a court said putting tape or anything temporary over a firearm serial number is OK I would like to read it.
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  11. #85
    Ex Member Array NotMallNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As far as people putting tape or anything over the serial numbers on weapons........

    The common thread being making the serial number less accessible to the naked eye is a bad thing. They might have a problem with tape, they might not.
    If anyone knows of any case law where a court said putting tape or anything temporary over a firearm serial number is OK I would like to read it.
    At best those cases only apply to the following states for the 9th Circuit:

    Alaska
    Arizona
    California
    Guam
    Hawaii
    Idaho
    Montana
    Nevada
    North Marianna Islands
    Oregon
    Washington

    and for the 5th Circuit:

    Louisiana
    Mississippi
    Texas

    And if they hold true there would appear to be a whole lot of accessory makers and firearms makers who are violating the restrictions.

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    I dont think so.

    The way most state statutes are written, any police officer can run any gun, no differrent than them running your plates. They have the legal authority to do so.

    While many wont if the encounter is routine, they could if they wanted to. In a high crime area, it is standard procedure for a cop to run any gun that they come across.
    Ah ... Yeah... I call BS on this guy. Your plates are on the outside of your car, your carry piece is on your person.
    You CAN REFUSE to allow them to run your gun and if the Law doesn't like it, they can GO POUND SAND!

  13. #87
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    Ah ... Yeah... I call BS on this guy. Your plates are on the outside of your car, your carry piece is on your person.
    You CAN REFUSE to allow them to run your gun and if the Law doesn't like it, they can GO POUND SAND!


    Try that one on the side of the rode and tell us how that works out for ya.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  14. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post


    Trythat one on the side of the rode and tell us how that works out for ya.
    Not entirely related but this afternoon while driving with my family I got pulled over in this speed trap of a town doing 50 in a 35. Before I could say a word the LEO told me how fast I was doing, said to slow it down, shook my hand and said have a nice day. I think I was stopped for less than 20 seconds. I didn't even get to inform him I was carrying -- let alone run my serial number.
    Last edited by NotMallNinja; September 4th, 2012 at 12:54 AM. Reason: Corrected Shoot to Shook

  15. #89
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    Most wont run your number on a traffic stop. But they could...unless of course there is a state law that prohibits it.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  16. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    So what if he does?

    This will not become an LEO bashing thread. Keep it on track.
    Never ever ask a cop for advice on a CCW issue!! Period!!
    Most have NO CLUE what the laws are even in their own jurisdiction!!

    As for this thread becoming an "LEO bashing" thread... The lack of knowledge of the law they are spouting is doing FAR MORE damage than we could!

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