BAD-BAD-BAD-BAD 4th district court...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    If it is the 2nd amendment or as in Mexifornia** the prop to label food, if there is a buck to be made the legalize group will find away and try to get you back into Serfdom! That the progressive mind set, you work for the government and at their whim.

    ** read the book before making a statement for which you are un-informed! Mexifornia: A State of Becoming: Victor Davis Hanson: Amazon.com: Kindle Store

    Or if you can read here is the audiobook: Mexifornia: Victor Davis Hanson: 9780786189274: Amazon.com: Books


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  3. #17
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    I can fault them.

    The people that got asbestos out of brakes and home insulation were more concerned with your health than your freedom.


    Using tatics like this will eventually lead to the very act of self defense being illegal, such as it is in England, where you get arrested for using a gun to defend yourself in your own home. Where the perp has more rights than the homeowner.

    Is that what we really want?

    don't like their goal, am uncertain about the ethics of their tactical legal approach
    If you are uncertain about the means used to acheive a goal, then your brain is telling you that it's probably not right, you just havent come to terms with it yet.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Using tatics like this will eventually lead to the very act of self defense being illegal, such as it is in England, where you get arrested for using a gun to defend yourself in your own home. Where the perp has more rights than the homeowner.

    Is that what we really want?
    A very real issue. In the past decade as many states were turning to CHL, it was in practice not all that uncommon to see, essentially, the last person standing charged with a crime of violence. Thankfully, there appear to be far fewer such instances publicized these days, though I don't know whether that really equates to a reduction in incidence. I'm assuming so, but who's to say for certain.

    We all need to stay vigilant, whatever else can be said.

    Amazing that a product liability case can be allowable based on anything other than product failure (ie, as in a "kaboom"). Amazing that any jury allows mere claim of liability to masquerade as the truth when the real issue is criminal misuse of a product. Amazing that claims of criminal infractions (ie, straw purchases or other trafficking) aren't strictly handled via the DA and wholly disallowed via the civil court system. What a world we've allowed.
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  5. #19
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    In some states, firearm/ammo manufacturors are protected from such frivilous actions.
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  6. #20
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    Thumbs down BAD: NY Court Decission

    NY Court’s Decision in Gun-Liability Case Described as Groundbreaking - Law Blog - WSJ


    October 12, 2012, 11:49 AM

    NY Courtís Decision in Gun-Liability Case Described as Groundbreaking


    By Sam Favate

    A decision last week by a New York State appellate court to reinstate a gun liability lawsuit is being held up as a landmark by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

    In a unanimous decision, the Appellate Division, Fourth Department, held that a Buffalo man who was shot nearly a decade ago can sue the manufacturer of the weapon, as well as the distributor and dealer. This case marks the first instance of a court holding that a gun manufacturer or distributor can be held liable under the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, according to the Brady Center.

    A lower court had tossed the case, based on the federal Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, a 2005 law that protects gun manufacturers and sellers. But the appeals court held that the law, which was signed by President George W. Bush, doesnít provide immunity to gun companies that illegally supply gun traffickers or irresponsible dealers, Reuters noted. The case now goes back to the trial court.

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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    That is very disappointing.

  8. #22
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    This is a decision that many saw coming. It sets the stage for a federal court battle over the legislation, which seems to be needed for just about any statute that actually does something in our world today. The political "team" that disagrees with the law will almost always sue to attempt to legislate from the bench that which they could not accomplish in the legislature.
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  9. #23
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    Not going anywhere.

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Just curious, and putting this up to stimulate some discussion. Did you object to this tactic as much
    when it was used to damage the economics of the tobacco industry and the ability of
    habitual smokers to do their thing?


    I don't like their goal, am uncertain about the ethics of their tactical legal approach, but can't fault them for
    trying something which has worked well in many other matters; e.g., getting asbestos out of
    brakes and home insulation.
    Personally, yes, I absolutely object to that. If you want to smoke like a chimney and die of lung cancer that's your business. Those things were called "death sticks" long before we were "lucky" enough to have a surgeon general there to warn us that inhaling smoke may not be so good for you after all. This is absolutely unjustifiable, and the lawyers who pursue this type of frivolous litigation should be disbarred. I think most of these idiotic lawsuits could go away with a simple "loser pays" rule. The lawyers who continue to pursue blatant stupidity like this need to be forced to find a new profession. They are a cancer upon our civilization.

  11. #25
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    Merged 2 additional threads on same topic.
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peckman28 View Post
    Personally, yes, I absolutely object to that. If you want to smoke like a chimney and die of lung cancer that's your business. Those things were called "death sticks" long before we were "lucky" enough to have a surgeon general there to warn us that inhaling smoke may not be so good for you after all. This is absolutely unjustifiable, and the lawyers who pursue this type of frivolous litigation should be disbarred. I think most of these idiotic lawsuits could go away with a simple "loser pays" rule. The lawyers who continue to pursue blatant stupidity like this need to be forced to find a new profession. They are a cancer upon our civilization.
    Maybe now. It was an entirely different world when those lawsuits first started. Big Tobacco was obfuscating the cancerous effects and actively denying the addictive effects, marketing to children, secretly formulating more addictive mixes, and putting on (known-to-be) ineffective 'protective' measures but also putting cough-suppressants into the leaves.

    It was a world where the average victim was fooled into starting smoking as a child, and then resoundingly blamed for personal weakness when they couldn't quit as adults. Those corporations deliberately acted evilly in order to give their shareholders and executives large amounts of money. The executives pocketed millions of dollars for every year they could delay customers from figuring out that they were plotting against them.

    There's no analogy to the gun industry - there's no corporate-based 'obfuscation' of the deadly effects of using a gun on a person, there's no marketing of an addictive product to children. To approach the evil of Big Tobacco, the gun industry would've had to devise a gun that released crack-cocaine into our palms every time we aimed at a person, and then denied (on the stand) that aiming guns at people was unwise.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    Maybe now. It was an entirely different world when those lawsuits first started. Big Tobacco was obfuscating the cancerous effects and actively denying the addictive effects, marketing to children, secretly formulating more addictive mixes, and putting on (known-to-be) ineffective 'protective' measures but also putting cough-suppressants into the leaves.

    It was a world where the average victim was fooled into starting smoking as a child, and then resoundingly blamed for personal weakness when they couldn't quit as adults. Those corporations deliberately acted evilly in order to give their shareholders and executives large amounts of money. The executives pocketed millions of dollars for every year they could delay customers from figuring out that they were plotting against them.

    There's no analogy to the gun industry - there's no corporate-based 'obfuscation' of the deadly effects of using a gun on a person, there's no marketing of an addictive product to children. To approach the evil of Big Tobacco, the gun industry would've had to devise a gun that released crack-cocaine into our palms every time we aimed at a person, and then denied (on the stand) that aiming guns at people was unwise.
    And right through the 1940s our own government was actively recommending that people smoke. Cigarettes were even issued to our soldiers. What basically happened is that the government went too far one way, then completely over-reacted the other way. This is the nature of government intervention, and it all could've been avoided if the government hadn't put itself into the position of telling people what is or is not healthy. In a world of genuine free market capitalism, the flow of information would've simply allowed people to make their minds up about what they would or would not do. If you become addicted to cigarettes, it's your own fault. It was easily observable to anyone what they would do, and as far as the "victimized children", their parents have themselves to blame for letting them smoke, and the role of government telling people it's good for you cannot be overlooked.

    Quite frankly I see a lot of parallels between the case of tobacco and the case against the gun industry. Once again, "the poor children" are being victimized. We demonized a smoking culture, and we've now been seeing all kinds of attempts to demonize the gun culture. Companies who are making products that are dangerous if misused, or overused, are being blamed when people misuse them or are harmed by them. The bottom line is, if you buy a pack of smokes, or a gun, you know what you're getting into. The government needs to butt out and let people make their own decisions, and be responsible for the consequences. Anything else is immoral, vague, and undermines the premise behind all the freedoms you enjoy. It is inconsistent to say that the role of government is to protect you from your own stupidity in one instance, but in another it is perfectly fine. When we buy into that, we typically end up with "compromise" that allows the government to "protect" you in both instances, and your freedoms are eroded that much more.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    A lot of what you say is true, but that doesn't change the fact that Big Tobacco was actively lying about their product. When something's harm is measured over the decades. the liars who cause that harm are partially to blame. I don't buy the idea that it's wrong to sue a corporation for lying about and obfuscating the harms that their product causes. The idea of 'personal responsibility' swings both ways, of course those executives got to keep their millions once they were paid, it's only the shareholders who would've suffered in the long-run.

    There's just no analogy to the modern gun industry. The dirtiest trick I can think of them doing is making their weapons easy to modify to circumvent the automatic weapon bans. There's no obfuscation about the dangers of firing a gun, none. It's a whole different game than what was played by Big Tobacco.

    Oh, sure, the gun culture and the smoking culture are being demonized - no argument there. But the sheer level of tort-worthy malfeasance by Big Tobacco was enormous and deserved punishment. Those lawsuits were legitimate, BT actively deceived about their product.
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  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig 210 View Post
    The case predates the federal law.

    Gun bill limits makers' liability - Baltimore Sun
    Thanks for posting that. Quite interesting.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    This will be thrown out eventually, because of these two paragraphs from the first link posted byArkhmAsylm in post #3.

    From article;
    The center said Bostic traveled to Ohio, which does not require a license to buy a gun, to procure a large numbers of handguns, including the pistol used to shoot Williams, the ruling said.

    So if everyone followed the rules in Oh, then how can they claim negligence?


    AND;

    "Although the complaint does not specify the statutes allegedly violated (by the defendants), it sufficiently alleges facts supporting a finding that defendants knowingly violated federal gun laws," Justice Erin Peradotto wrote for the court.




    Again, if no laws were broken in the transactions in Oh then they are just grabbing at thin air, and will not have a case.
    Those are the big questions. Bostic was not an Ohio resident. His purchase of handguns in Ohio is illegal under the gun control act of 1968. So if it can be shown that the dealer who sold them knew he was not an Ohio resident he also is in violation of the gun control act of 1968. If it can be shown that distributor selling the guns to the dealer, and the manufacturer selling them to the distributor also knew that they were shipping guns that were to be sold illegally they are on the hook too.

    The question is can they show that the manufacturer, distributor, and dealer knew or should have known the transactions were illegal.
    That lawful commerce protection only applies if the commerce was lawful. Here, at least part of it was not.
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