Gun buster signs and NO-GUN employers - Page 2

Gun buster signs and NO-GUN employers

This is a discussion on Gun buster signs and NO-GUN employers within the The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion forums, part of the Related Topics category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 Which part of the Bill of Rights specifically addresses private property rights? the 2nd Amendment is about GOVERNMENT infringment upon gun-rights. ...

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  1. #16
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Which part of the Bill of Rights specifically addresses private property rights?
    the 2nd Amendment is about GOVERNMENT infringment upon gun-rights.

    what people do on their own property, is their business.


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Not that I agree with Pythius much but where in the Bill of Rights does it say a private person or company cannot prohibit firearms. we on tis forum go out of our way t make it a pooint that when they talk about infringed it is about the government doing the infringing
    Not that I disagree with the point he is making, but the third and fourth amendments are the only ones which reference the rights of private property owners, and neither come anywhere close to allowing the abrogation of the second by parties private or public.
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  3. #18
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Not that I disagree with the point he is making, but the third and fourth amendments are the only ones which reference the rights of private property owners, and neither come anywhere close to allowing the abrogation of the second by parties private or public.
    pretty much everyone agrees that the 2nd Amendment is about governmental infringement on gun-rights, NOT infringement by private-property owners.

    if the 2nd Amendment is expanded to include private-property, a whole can of worms gets opened up regarding private-property rights.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    pretty much everyone agrees that the 2nd Amendment is about governmental infringement on gun-rights, NOT infringement by private-property owners.

    if the 2nd Amendment is expanded to include private-property, a whole can of worms gets opened up regarding private-property rights.
    Again, where in the constitution are private property rights addressed?
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  5. #20
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Again, where in the constitution are private property rights addressed?
    do you REALLY want the 2nd Amendment applied to private-property owners?

    do you want to be forced to allow a delivery guy, or salesman, or Jehovah's Witness onto your property with a handgun, against your wishes and concern for your family?

    do you not grasp the MASSIVE can of worms that would be unleashed, if the Constitution could be applied to YOUR private land?

    its very simple: if your land becomes under the jurisdiction of the Constitution, then your land is NO LONGER your land.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    do you REALLY want the 2nd Amendment applied to private-property owners?

    do you want to be forced to allow a delivery guy, or salesman, or Jehovah's Witness onto your property with a handgun, against your wishes and concern for your family?

    do you not grasp the MASSIVE can of worms that would be unleashed, if the Constitution could be applied to YOUR private land?

    its very simple: if your land becomes under the jurisdiction of the Constitution, then your land is NO LONGER your land.
    Try not to confuse what I want or don't want with individual rights described, and not described in the constitution.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Try not to confuse what I want or don't want with individual rights described, and not described in the constitution.
    would you like the 1st Amendment applied to your front lawn?

    could you imagine not being allowed to remove a Nazi flag someone puts on your lawn, or a burning American flag, or a poster supporting Al Gore for President?

    could you imagine NOT being allowed to remove protestors from your kitchen?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    would you like the 1st Amendment applied to your front lawn?

    could you imagine not being allowed to remove a Nazi flag someone puts on your lawn, or a burning American flag, or a poster supporting Al Gore for President?

    could you imagine NOT being allowed to remove protestors from your kitchen?
    Again, you are confusing what I want or don't want with what is stated by the Constitution. The First Amendment is very clear:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
    As far as I know, Congress has made no laws regarding Nazi flag flying or American flag burning, in my yard or anywhere else.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Again, you are confusing what I want or don't want with what is stated by the Constitution. The First Amendment is very clear:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
    As far as I know, Congress has made no laws regarding Nazi flag flying or American flag burning, in my yard or anywhere else.
    government has to allow Nazis, the KKK, Satanists, etc etc.....protest on public property.

    if the USC is applied to PRIVATE-PROPERTY, that would mean that you would be legally bound to allow the KKK, Neo-Nazis, or Satanists protest on your front lawn or in your kitchen.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    government has to allow Nazis, the KKK, Satanists, etc etc.....protest on public property.

    if the USC is applied to PRIVATE-PROPERTY, that would mean that you would be legally bound to allow the KKK, Neo-Nazis, or Satanists protest on your front lawn or in your kitchen.
    The US Constitution makes very little reference to private property one way or the other, which has been my point all along.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Which part of the Bill of Rights specifically addresses private property rights?
    Do you not think you have the right to determine who carries what in your home, regardless that it's not specificly addressed in the Bill of Rights? A business has those same rights; they are not public property.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The US Constitution makes very little reference to private property one way or the other, which has been my point all along.
    that is right.

    meanwhile, how would you feel if the govt. said that you MUST allow Satanists, the KKK, or Neo-Nazis hold a protest on your front lawn or in your kitchen?

    cause that's EXACTLY what would happen if we applied the Bill of Rights to private-property.

  13. #28
    Ex Member Array Pythius's Avatar
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    a friend of mine, said the following:

    Hell no.

    I happen to own a couple of businesses so I can give you a first hand perspective. And in the interest of full disclosure, I am also a gun owner.

    It's my business. Period, end of paragraph.

    I get to decide under what legal circumstances I allow people to work for me, or come into my place of business as a customer.

    And it's not a matter of being anti-gun. As I said, I'm a gun owner. It's a matter of money. Or at least a matter of potential money. And nearly all of it coming out of my pocket.

    Let's take a simple scenario, shall we? Someone comes into the store to rob us. An employee pulls a weapon, and shooting ensues on both sides. Guess who's gonna get sued, regardless? That's right, me. I'm the one with the "deep pockets" here. I'll be sued by either the robber or his family for injuries, or wrongful death, or any other number of things. Same with the employee's family. Since my insurance doesn't cover employees with weapons on my property, because such a policy is way more expensive, I'll be facing these lawsuits all by my lonesome. No thanks.

    Similarly, I don't want some dispute between two customers, or between a customer and employee to get out of hand. Never happened before, even to the point of a fist-fight, but that's not to say it won't ever happen, does it? Stranger things show up in the newspaper every single day.

    Now, of course, outside of posting a no weapons policy in the store, there's little I can do to keep a customer from carrying. It's not like we're going to put them through a metal detector, or search them. Still, it does protect me somewhat with my insurance company at that point if something happens.

    But none of this takes into account the other economics forces that will accrue if either of these scenarios comes to pass. The publicity. Bad publicity can kill a business, and when something like the two examples mentioned comes to pass, there will be publicity, most of it probably bad. And that tends to drive customers away. For some reason they don't want to shop where life and limb may be at stake. Go figure.

    So yes, I'll by God ban weapons by employees, and at least put customers on notice that I don't want them in my store with a weapon. If they don't like it, they are quite free to look for employment, or my retail products and services elsewhere. So far though, business has been just fine. No one has even asked about the "No Guns" sign behind the counter.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    that is right.

    meanwhile, how would you feel if the govt. said that you MUST allow Satanists, the KKK, or Neo-Nazis hold a protest on your front lawn or in your kitchen?

    cause that's EXACTLY what would happen if we applied the Bill of Rights to private-property.
    How would you feel if the government said that Satanists, the KKK or the Neo-Nazis are no longer afforded protections guaranteed by the US Constitution?
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pythius View Post
    a friend of mine, said the following:

    Hell no.

    I happen to own a couple of businesses so I can give you a first hand perspective. And in the interest of full disclosure, I am also a gun owner.

    It's my business. Period, end of paragraph.

    I get to decide under what legal circumstances I allow people to work for me, or come into my place of business as a customer.

    And it's not a matter of being anti-gun. As I said, I'm a gun owner. It's a matter of money. Or at least a matter of potential money. And nearly all of it coming out of my pocket.

    Let's take a simple scenario, shall we? Someone comes into the store to rob us. An employee pulls a weapon, and shooting ensues on both sides. Guess who's gonna get sued, regardless? That's right, me. I'm the one with the "deep pockets" here. I'll be sued by either the robber or his family for injuries, or wrongful death, or any other number of things. Same with the employee's family. Since my insurance doesn't cover employees with weapons on my property, because such a policy is way more expensive, I'll be facing these lawsuits all by my lonesome. No thanks.

    Similarly, I don't want some dispute between two customers, or between a customer and employee to get out of hand. Never happened before, even to the point of a fist-fight, but that's not to say it won't ever happen, does it? Stranger things show up in the newspaper every single day.

    Now, of course, outside of posting a no weapons policy in the store, there's little I can do to keep a customer from carrying. It's not like we're going to put them through a metal detector, or search them. Still, it does protect me somewhat with my insurance company at that point if something happens.

    But none of this takes into account the other economics forces that will accrue if either of these scenarios comes to pass. The publicity. Bad publicity can kill a business, and when something like the two examples mentioned comes to pass, there will be publicity, most of it probably bad. And that tends to drive customers away. For some reason they don't want to shop where life and limb may be at stake. Go figure.

    So yes, I'll by God ban weapons by employees, and at least put customers on notice that I don't want them in my store with a weapon. If they don't like it, they are quite free to look for employment, or my retail products and services elsewhere. So far though, business has been just fine. No one has even asked about the "No Guns" sign behind the counter.
    Do you reckon it will float longer if you claim to be quoting a friend instead of cross-posting from another forum?
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

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